The Trade the Phillies Had to Make / Goodbye, Colbert / Hello, 2017

Cole Hamels is a Texas Ranger.

This is OK. At least, it needs to be, because it’s reality.

Cole Hamels is probably the best homegrown pitcher in Phillies history. He’s irreplaceable in our hearts, and in franchise lore. Poor Aaron Nola! He’s going to be a really, really good pitcher for the Phillies for years, but if he becomes even two-thirds of what Cole Hamels was for the team, all Phillies fans will be beyond lucky.

But Cole Hamels is a Texas Ranger now (say that one more time without cringing), and we need to move on. The Trade, as we will likely come to know this event, is the final page in this glorious chapter of Phillies history. Cole gave us hope, and a 2008 World Series championship, and more than enough hot dog gun/mustache/fashion show photos to keep us in Hamels memes for the next few years.

Throughout the process of trading one of the five best pitchers in franchise history, the Phillies were consistent. They maintained they would only trade Hamels for the return they deemed appropriate — namely, your two best prospects, and then some. Well, it didn’t quite work out that way — there’s no Carlos Correa, Corey Seager, or Lucas Giolito in this package — but this was a trade the Phillies absolutely needed to make. For the health of the franchise and the acceleration of The Plan, this was required. I know Liz Roscher is still crying about this, and I don’t blame her. But unlike the aftermath of the Jimmy Rollins trade, when I was devastated, right now I’m at peace. I feel good about the trade the Phillies made, and call me naive, but for all the mistakes this club has made over the last four years, I believe this was the best trade they could have made.

Before I go any further, I want to make it absolutely, 100% crystal clear that I love and will always love Cole Hamels. It’s impossible not to! Have you seen how handsome he is? And that changeup is to die for. I’ll miss his demeanor on the mound, his laser focus, his glare … his constant tucking in of his jersey and fixing his belt. I’ll miss the absolute robot-like consistency of his delivery. I’ll miss the hair. I never want to see another player wear #35 for this franchise. Ever.

Anyway, I’m not a prospect expert. I’m not Brad Engler or Matt Winkleman, or Eric Longenhagen or Kiley McDaniel, or Keith Law. All those guys will have plenty to say about the players Texas sent to the Phillies for Hamels. I’ve never watched video of them or done anything more than research their stats and rankings in Baseball Prospectus and Baseball America. But the general consensus seems to be that Nick Williams, Jorge Alfaro, and Jake Thompson are all global Top 100 prospects, and if you can’t get one Top 10/Top 20 prospect, getting three Top 100s is a pretty good outcome. The other two prospects — Alec Asher and Jerad Eickhoff — seem to project as back-end starters or, more likely, solid relievers. There’s nothing wrong with that, by the way. If you don’t have that, you overpay Mike Adams in free agency or rely on Jeff Manship. Considering Hamels’ team-friendly contract (in the current context), I can understand some frustration that the Phillies pitched in some money and took back Matt Harrison‘s contract. However, it seems this is the world we need to accept. A fantastic player under team control on a very reasonable contract is, by himself, not enough to get top prospects.

Besides the player haul coming to Philadelphia, which I feel is a good enough return, I love what the trade does for the Phillies franchise overall. For the last few years, it’s seemed like the Phillies’ return to relevance and being competitive would take until the end of the decade. But after a pretty excellent 12 months, the Phillies have put themselves in a position to be a force in the division for 2017. It’s partially due to the dramatic improvement in the minor league system, and to the weakness of the division. Let’s take a quick look, yes?

***

The Marlins. Yeah, uh. Hmm. Nope.

The Braves. What’s, what’s going on there? Did they just trade four years of Alex Wood, six years of Jose Peraza, and more for five years from a 30-year-old with an injured elbow who’s yet to play in MLB? That plan should work really well if Hector Olivera becomes Jason Kipnis or Todd Frazier, but if not, last week’s trade could put the Braves even further behind in the division competition than they are right now.

The Nationals. Stay with me for a second … they’re vulnerable. They can’t even fend off the Mets this season. The Mets! The Nationals are losing Jordan Zimmermann and Doug Fister to free agency after the season, and though each has underperformed in his own way this year and for different reasons, that’s a major loss, even if Max Scherzer is the ace. Conversely, that’s $28 million coming off the books they can give to Johnny Cueto or David Price, also free agents after this year. They’re losing Ian Desmond and Denard Span as well — who have also been somewhat disappointing this year — though Desmond’s miserable season seems more like bad luck than skill erosion. Desmond, after all, just produced three consecutive 20/20 seasons while playing sometimes nonterrible defense at short. Span has been good this year, when healthy. Yes, that is my broken record, thank you. Oh, and Bryce Harper is a free agent after the 2018 season. But at least Ryan Zimmerman is signed through 2019!

Which brings us to the Mets. The Mets are the team I’m most concerned about, and that’s because of three names: Matt Harvey, Jacob deGrom, and Noah Syndergaard. The Phillies currently have zero pitchers who can compare to any of those hurlers. Perhaps a dip into free agency nets the Phillies an ace, and perhaps Aaron Nola eventually becomes a fantastic #2 starting pitcher, but there’s a lot of distance between the Mets’ rotation and the Phillies’ and it isn’t close. And that doesn’t even account for Zack Wheeler and Steven Matz, both out with injuries. Having said that, the Mets are pretty terrible at scoring runs — in fact, they’re dead last in baseball this year. They don’t have a J.P. Crawford waiting in the wings, and their ownership is either unwilling or unable to spend the amount of money on payroll that is expected for a New York baseball club. Maybe that changes soon, and the Mets do have a lot of payroll expiring after the season, but there’s a lot of work to do to make the Mets into a legitimate offense.

The Nationals are still going to be really good, and are the team to beat until someone takes that label from them. But they look to be getting old and expensive pretty fast, and we all know what can happen when you go down that road and keep spending money. The Mets are going to be dangerous, particularly if their young bats (Michael Conforto and Travis d’Arnaud) become weapons to complement their aging star David Wright. The Phillies now have a real chance at making some noise in the division, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some really good progress in 2016 and legitimate excitement in 2017.

***

With the Cole Hamels trade, the Phillies acquired significant talent depth in the high levels of the minor leagues. It’s possible the trade pushed the franchise’s clock forward by an entire year, or more. They’ve rebounded from some awful decisions (which we really, really don’t need to rehash) to completely overhaul the franchise in the span of about a year. The high minors have tons of pitching depth, J.P. Crawford is barreling toward a mid-2016 debut, Maikel Franco and Aaron Nola are already making significant positive contributions, and the franchise overall is healthier than it’s been in years. There’s projectable talent at every level of the system, and a good quantity of it too, which is important since minor leaguers so often can’t figure out their flaws enough to succeed against MLB talent.

Additionally, there’s about $80 million coming off the books this winter, and plenty coming off after 2016, when Ryan Howard and Cliff Lee‘s money will finally, painfully go away. The Phillies have made no secret about their willingness to spend money to make the team competitive. Right now, the team has about $66 million in salary commitments for 2016, which you can push to about $80 million (which is pretty aggressive) to account for arbitration and pre-arbitration players. The Phillies are not going to start 2016 with an $80 million payroll. I’m not saying they’re going to binge spend on free agents, but I am saying that David Price, Johnny Cueto, Jeff Samardzija, Scott Kazmir, Jordan Zimmermann, Jason Heyward, Justin Upton, Matt Wieters, Dexter Fowler, and Yoenis Cespedes are all free agents the Phillies may be interested in acquiring. Oh, and for 2017, the Phillies currently have about $24 million on the books, which you can bump to $50 million just to play it safe to include the arbitration and pre-arbitration players. Whether it’s this winter or next winter, or both, the Phillies are going to have money to spend and they WILL spend it. Guaranteed. Screenshot it, whatever. It’s going to happen.

David Price isn’t Cole Hamels. The Phillies are probably unlikely to get Price, but if they do acquire a pitcher of his caliber and talent, don’t feel bad about him not being Cole Hamels. Don’t fret about the team spending more on a free agent pitcher than they would have paid Hamels. As tough as it is to accept, it’s easy to spend money on free agents, but you can’t just go out there and buy three top-100 prospects with money (unless you’re the Dodgers or Red Sox and sign every international star ever). Trading Cole Hamels netted the Phillies three players who project to be everyday big leaguers as soon as 2016, and there’s a nonzero chance that Nick Williams and/or Jorge Alfaro become stars. Consider that the last gift Colbert Michael Hamels leaves for the city. It’s a chance to move on, and we need to accept it, thank him for it, and run with it. Goodbye, Cole.

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66 comments

  1. Rellis

    August 03, 2015 05:37 PM

    I don’t think I will ever forgive them for having to trade Cole Hamels.

    • Beez Nutz

      August 04, 2015 04:23 PM

      I don’t get it. That is the EXACT type of thinking that got them in the position they’re in.

      • Jake

        August 04, 2015 06:02 PM

        I don’t think you quite got his point. Trading him was the right thing to do at this point (both for Cole and the future of the team), regardless of whether you liked Cole or not. Rellis’s point is that the team should not have been allowed to deteriorate THIS badly so quickly to the point they needed to trade him. Again, he’s not saying he won’t forgive FOR trading Hamels, but for HAVING to trade Hamels. There’s a difference.

  2. Edwin

    August 03, 2015 06:06 PM

    Love Cole but your assumption that ‘Cole Hamels is probably the best homegrown pitcher in Phillies history’ might not hold up under scrutiny. Does the name Robin Roberts mean anything to you?

    • JRFarmer

      August 03, 2015 06:31 PM

      “Home grown”, in today’s parlance, means “drafted by and developed by”. You can’t quite apply that term the same way in Robin Roberts’ day. Roberts debuted in 1948 and the first MLB amateur draft was held in 1965.

      • Romus

        August 03, 2015 07:05 PM

        So Robin Roberts’ signing as an amateur in ’48, right after college/school by the Phillies does not count as ‘homegrown’, interesting

      • JRFarmer

        August 03, 2015 07:26 PM

        He debuted in June that year. The Phillies did not “home grow” that pitcher.

      • Romus

        August 04, 2015 02:45 PM

        He did pitch 96 innings in Wilmington that year before being called up.

      • 100Bucks

        August 05, 2015 02:18 PM

        Look if we are going to drag out Chris Short and Robin Roberts then lets go all the way to Pete Alexander. He debuted as a Phillie in 1911 and over the next 7 seasons led the league in wins 5 times, ERA 3 times, and shutouts 3 times.

      • Andy

        August 05, 2015 06:33 AM

        This is an “opinion” I’ve seen at least twice on this website without any explanation why Robin Roberts is not considered “homegrown.”

      • Edwin

        August 05, 2015 07:24 AM

        Then state it as your opinion instead of what an in arguable truth.

    • Adam Dembowitz

      August 05, 2015 09:58 AM

      I’m sorry you failed reading comprehension. “Cole Hamels is probably the best homegrown pitcher in Phillies history.” Note the word, “probably.” Also, I don’t have to write “in my opinion” before every statement I make.

      Finally, for the love of puppies, of course I’ve heard of Robin Roberts. I think Cole Hamels is a better pitcher.

  3. cal

    August 03, 2015 07:51 PM

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    -21

    Chris Short was homegrown and he was alot more entertaining than Cole. Short was a fierce competitor who pitched against the opponent ace a high percentage of the time and was also made available in save situations and then on short rest would make his next scheduled start. Chris was a true workhorse. Cole parlayed a 14 win season with clutch pennant qualifying work and world series title contributions in 2008 into an early retirement package in Phila with mega millions in his account and giving meager returns to the team after 2008. Nice work if you can get it. Now he will be exposed in the AL as his interleague stats would indicate. Too bad Rangers; you goofed. Also, Curt Simmons was a superior home grown product and it was too bad the lawn cutting accident curtailed his career. Art Mahaffey, Dennis Bennett and Ray Culp were initially more entertaining than Cole, but injuries curtailed them also.

    • SJ Haack

      August 04, 2015 03:08 PM

      Interestingly enough, Curt Simmons is directly comparable to Cole Hamels, because they pitched the same number of innings for the Phillies. It’s true, Simmons did have one more win than Cole! That’s the only number you can plausibly claim was better with the Phillies. He also took 20 more losses! For all the talk of workhorsery, it took him 30 more appearances to log the same number of innings. He had 200 fewer Ks in his entire career than Cole had with the Phils. He allowed nearly twice as many walks, and almost 200 more runs. Remind you, still the same number of innings. He had a higher ERA, in a lower run environment, in a better pitcher’s park. He had a nice career, had a couple nice seasons, and was otherwise thoroughly average.

      As for Chris Short…

      Well at least I know who Curt Simmons is.

    • Mike B

      August 04, 2015 03:42 PM

      If Hamels’ performance since 2008 constitutes “meager returns,” I’d love to know what you consider good work.

  4. BenT

    August 03, 2015 09:57 PM

    Adam, sounds like Franklyn Kilome has true ace potential. With Kilome, Nola, and Thompson, that could be a very decent and cheap arsenal to compete with the Mets. Add to that a free agent, and you have a good enough rotation to go along with a serious lineup with Crawford, Williams, Alfaro, and Franco. They’ll also have speed with Quinn. As I see it, they’re missing a first baseman, who they can get through free agency, and they have still other youngin’s (Jhalyn Ortiz, Luis Encarnacion, Tocci, Gamboa, etc.) coming up and in the pipeline. I’m kind of stoked to see the Phils come out of this funk and improve in the next year or two.

    • Adam Dembowitz

      August 04, 2015 12:11 AM

      I know Matt’s high on Kilome, but he’s also cautioned that there’s a long way to progress before he realizes his potential. Even if Kilome becomes a 1 or 2, I’m still skeptical that group could be even reasonably competitive with Harvey/deGrom/Thor.

      • Romus

        August 04, 2015 02:51 PM

        If the Phillies select first next season…..someone like Puk maybe…..then their staff, if Nola, Eflin and Thompson all fulfill their promise, they could be close to the Mets…of course currently do not see any MLB staff topping the Mets staff.
        Interestingly…..two of the five have undergone TJ already…Harvey and Wheeler…..and if Strasburg and Zimmerman are any indication of future projections after a TJ procedure…then they may have the downslope affecting them in 2/3 years.
        Thor, another high velo guy, could be another susceptible to the same type malady down the road. .

  5. Maryrose

    August 03, 2015 11:00 PM

    I am devastated that Cole has been traded. I was hoping that there would be a miracle and he would stay, but deep down I knew he would go because now he wanted to. I hope this is not the last we see of Cole and Heidi Hamels. All the work their foundation has done is amazing. If it has been said once it’s been said a million times that he is a total class act and God knows Philadelphia can definitely use as much of that as we can get. All the best to Cole and Heidi and their 3 beautiful children. I will never forget you Cole and I wish you and your family all the best. Now go and get another ring.

  6. Berdj J. Rassam

    August 03, 2015 11:05 PM

    The Phils had to move what older talent they did have to rebuild their team for the future.

  7. cal

    August 04, 2015 12:45 AM

    I forgot to mention one of my very favorites. Mr. Rick Wise at 18 yrs of age joined big club in June of ’64 to contribute and is an all time home bred talent because he turned into Steve Carlton via a swap. Thanks Rick.

    • trade update

      August 04, 2015 05:50 AM

      Good Lord, enough with Rick Wise and Chris Short, neither is the pitcher Cole Hamels is. Yes, I was alive to see them yet I don’t fixate on times past and think todays ballplayers don’t compare with past years. Top five pitchers all time for Phillies (100 wins) – Grover Alexander, Steve Carlton, Robin Roberts, Curt Schilling and Cole Hamels, in that order. For a team in existance 125+ years 1890 – 2015 its a pretty damn impressive list to be on.

      No you didn’t forget to mention Rick Wise, you can hardl;y post without Rick Wise being mentioned. It was his fortunate luck to be traded for Lefty or no one would remember Rick Wise. Kinda like, who was drafted ahead of Air Jorden or who was the Power forward from the ABA who played for the 76er’s before Doc?

      RICK WISE 2 AS games, One(1) Top 10 MVP or Cy Young
      18 Yrs W-188 L-181 %-.509 ERA-3.69 CG-138 SO-30 IP-3127.1 W-804 SO-1647 ERA+-101 FIP-3.41

      162 Game Avg. W-13 L-13 %-.509 ERA-3.69 IP-221

      Chris Short 2 AS (CYA not invented) 2 top 30 MVP
      15 Yrs W-135 L-132 %-.506 ERA – 3.43 CG-88 SO-24 IP-2325.0 W-806 SO-1629 ERA+ – 104 FIP-3.27

      Cole Hamels 3 AS – 4 x Top 10 CYA
      10 Yrs W-114 L-90 %-.559 ERA-3.31 CG-14 SO-7 IP-1937.2 W-493 SO-1850 ERA+ – 123 FIP – 3.47

    • bubba0101

      August 04, 2015 12:36 PM

      Dont you have anything better to do? Cant you volunteer some of this time helping kids?

      • Francisco (FC)

        August 04, 2015 12:52 PM

        Why would you want to do that to the poor kids?

  8. Mike Lacy

    August 04, 2015 06:26 AM

    Just because all of those Nats players are due to hit free agency, it doesn’t mean they’re necessarily gone.

    The Nats haven’t been shy about spending money. Who knows? Maybe they decide that they don’t need quite so much starting pitching and re-invest that money in one of those big hitters that we think the Phillies are going to go after?

  9. Mark ferraro

    August 04, 2015 07:07 AM

    Yes…roberts, hamels, wise in that order. Good luck Cole.

    • cal

      August 04, 2015 08:05 AM

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      -10

      I checked the archives by this fine author and reviewed his article of 2014 when he discussed the collapse of Cole in 2009 series. Too bad Cole did not earn his mega bucks after 2008 and was overpaid. Good for Cole, it’s not his fault Phils’ bosses are not efficient. In entertainment order; I rank 1) Chris Short 1a} LEFTY 2} Robin Roberts 3} Jim Bunning 4} Art Mahaffey 5} Curt Simmons 6} Dennis Bennett 7} Ray Culp 8}Jim Lonborg 9} Wayne Twitchell during his 1 good yr going 13-9 with FIVE whitewashes! 10}Ruthven

      Cole is tops in entertaining self and looking good in financial community. This man should have been dealt over two years ago if franchise was playing grand master chess and not the obvious tiddly winks or old maid.

  10. cal

    August 04, 2015 08:20 AM

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    -10

    By the venom directed at me, it is obvious this is a young crowd with no understanding of baseball’s greatest era with DiMaggio, Greenberg, Mays, Snider, Mantle, Kaline, Musial, Clemente, Kiner, Aaron, McCovey, Ashburn, Ritchie Allen, Banks, Ted Williams, Yaz, Killebrew, Frank Robinson, Berra, Kuenn, Ashburn et al. No skin off my keester.. These men would dominate in any era. One gentleman said alot of the men of this era would be fringe men today. Very interesting power of observation by a person schooled by braille.. Men are just men. Why would anyone think today’s men are super heroes. Because alot have at any given time used performance enhancers? I guess that is today’s culture. Bon appetit. Bonjour. Guten Tag.

    • trade update

      August 04, 2015 08:30 AM

      Good Lord, enough with Rick Wise and Chris Short, neither is the pitcher Cole Hamels is. Yes, I was alive to see them yet I don’t fixate on times past and think todays ballplayers don’t compare with past years. Top five pitchers all time for Phillies (100 wins) – Grover Alexander, Steve Carlton, Robin Roberts, Curt Schilling and Cole Hamels, in that order. For a team in existance 125+ years 1890 – 2015 its a pretty damn impressive list to be on.

      • cal

        August 04, 2015 09:14 AM

        check stats: Curt Simmons with one more win than Cole lifetime with Phils/Chris Short was fantastic; you may not think so but I take Short on my team when I play your team with Cole every time/good luck to you; you will need it with Cole on your side

    • trade update

      August 04, 2015 08:30 AM

      No you didn’t forget to mention Rick Wise, you can hardl;y post without Rick Wise being mentioned. It was his fortunate luck to be traded for Lefty or no one would remember Rick Wise. Kinda like, who was drafted ahead of Air Jorden or who was the Power forward from the ABA who played for the 76er’s before Doc?

      RICK WISE 2 AS games, One(1) Top 10 MVP or Cy Young
      18 Yrs W-188 L-181 %-.509 ERA-3.69 CG-138 SO-30 IP-3127.1 W-804 SO-1647 ERA+-101 FIP-3.41

      162 Game Avg. W-13 L-13 %-.509 ERA-3.69 IP-221

      Chris Short 2 AS (CYA not invented) 2 top 30 MVP
      15 Yrs W-135 L-132 %-.506 ERA – 3.43 CG-88 SO-24 IP-2325.0 W-806 SO-1629 ERA+ – 104 FIP-3.27

      Cole Hamels 3 AS – 4 x Top 10 CYA
      10 Yrs W-114 L-90 %-.559 ERA-3.31 CG-14 SO-7 IP-1937.2 W-493 SO-1850 ERA+ – 123 FIP – 3.47

  11. Chris S.

    August 04, 2015 08:38 AM

    It is sad to see Cole go, but I hope for a reunion in a few years when the Phillies are competitive again and Cole is looking for a place to go to win a championship!

    • cal

      August 04, 2015 09:43 AM

      All that matters as far as Phils are concerned is that St.Louis thought that Rick Wise was worth a Steve Carlton. Once Rick left Phils no fans cared what Rick did. The Phils got a huge part of their history with Lefty thanks to Rick Wise. Hello. Check your stats men: All time winners and don’t make me laugh when men say wins don’t count in evaluations: I rank era first, wins second, saves third, innings fourth. Remember Carlton won 27 games with a team probably worse than this year’s edition. Carlton won some games with his hitting too. Cole would be honored to carry Steve’s carry on./ Carlton:247 wins, Robin: 234 Grover: 190 , Chris Short: 132 with 459 starts, guess what, Phils did not hit much for Short either, Curt Simmons: 115, COLE: 114, Schilling:115, Bunning: 89, Christenson: 83, Ruthven: 78, Lonborg: 75, Wise: 75, Kendrick: 74, Meyers: 73, Mulholland: 62, Mahaffey: 58, Halliday: 55, Konstanty: 51, Tug: 49, Cliff Lee: 48/ Phils ROI: huge with Lefty, Robin, Short, Simmons, Bunning, Christenson, Ruthven, Lonborg, Wise, Mahaffey, Konstanty, Tug/ Roi with cole, lee, haliday, kendrick not so much

      • cal

        August 04, 2015 09:45 AM

        correction: Schilling: 101

      • trade update

        August 04, 2015 11:10 AM

        Curt Simmons
        PHI (13 yrs) W-115 L-110 %-.511 ERA-3.66 IP-1939.2 W-718 K’s-1052 ERA+ – 108

        Again, another pretty mediocre pitcher (8%) better than his peers in his era, no K’s. Glad you have such fond memories of the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. You should, that’s when you were a kid and young adult and we all live with rose colored glasses but just as you want to paint a happy picture and not give credit for the bigger, better conditioned athletes of today, I can back my statements with actual data. It took Simmons 3 extra years to win 1 more game. Do I believe hitters like Ted W, the Babe, Lou, Pete Rose, Hank Aaron, Mays and Pitchers like Gibson, Koufax, Nolan would be monsters today. Absolutely! In fact, with all the additional data and information available, they’d be Mike Trout, Kershaw, Hernandez or “insert dominate player.” Elite is elite for a reason but you are hung up on people who were better than average but not elite.

      • bubba0101

        August 04, 2015 12:39 PM

        Youre missing a ton of stats. Literally dozens of stats that measure a pitcher more than wins are available at your disposal very easily.

      • cal

        August 04, 2015 01:43 PM

        Gents and Youngsters: I only need e.r.a primarily along with innings totals and wins or saves along with K to BB ratio to rate my chuckers. You men can have all your fancy statistical crutches you wish. I like my feel for the game and tune in & up my esp n get my end games. I’ll get a few of my fellow Mensa sandlot men for coaches with my roster based on my evaluations and we will take any club you have and say play ball. Let us see who the better VP of Player Personnel is on the field pronto. I focus on the past because history teaches big lessons. Also, the present Phils are so dreary there is not much hope or interest points to hash over. Current club has increased batting averages nicely in last six weeks, but there is no power. Big problem. Defensively current club is average at best and I am guessing on that since I really only check boxscores and have not seen the team play in years other than a batter once in awhile or a pitcher for an inning. Bullpen has no depth and starters are ineffective except for potentials in Nola. Phils yet to name a manager for next year which will be key to creativity needed to get this team rolling. The mgr must be unique or attendance will continue to dwindle. The Phils seem to have money so they need to make a statement about how serious they are and just pay all money owed Ruiz, Utley, Lee and Howard so these men can go happily into the sunset. They waited too long on these men and everyone knows they have no trade value even though they seem to be nice human beings. Bonjour et Auf Wiedersehen

      • Jake

        August 04, 2015 02:32 PM

        cal has “not seen the team play in years other than a batter once in awhile or a pitcher for an inning,” yet still thinks he is an expert on everything Cole Hamels and scouting-related. This just keeps getting more and more hilarious.

        cdn.meme.am/images/300x/1166079.jpg

      • Romus

        August 04, 2015 03:01 PM

        cal….I am in your approx. age category and seen a lot of them play and respect your past historical knowledge but there is one telling stat that can give a truer measure of a players value to the team they are on….WAR.
        Hamels- 43WAR
        Short- 31WAR as a Phillie
        Simmons-20WAR as a Phillie
        Wise- 12WAR as a Phillie

  12. trade update

    August 04, 2015 01:30 PM

    Bubba, Agreed, the most telling stat as far as I’m concerned are the ERA+, K’s/W’s/9. Pulling stats off BP and importing to this message board is a pain. All the stats favor Cole Hamels by a large degree over Rick Wise, Curt Simmons and Chris Short.

    Don’t you have anything better to do than whine?

  13. Beez Nutz

    August 04, 2015 04:26 PM

    Maybe its just me, but I feel zero attachment to Cole Hamels. I don’t care if he’s homegrown or not, never really got that whole sentiment honestly.

    Great pitcher, always going to be appreciative for 2008, but truly don’t care that he’s gone at all. Out of all the core guys, he was easily my least favorite – and by least, I really don’t mean it in any negative sense, just always felt indifferent towards him.

    • cal

      August 04, 2015 06:09 PM

      Hint for Phils brass: forget sabermetrics; contact Rhine Labs in NC; clairvoyance is available if interested; it is serious business with many ImpressionS of success/if you have one game to win and you must have this game; who do you put on the hill? believe me, it is not your lovable, handsome, southpaw, wealthy hero gals

      • bubba0101

        August 05, 2015 09:12 AM

        Cal, I get it. You dont want to use the tools you are not comfortable using. Advanced metrics are mostly new but ALL of baseball is using them, and theyre using them because they work. Billy Beane put the A’s in contention many times with a mediocre payroll because he used advanced statistical analyses. It is a huge part of baseball now. You are citing stats like ERA. ERA wasnt a stat until it was a stat. The first stats were “shit he hits the ball hard” or “damn he can throw”. How do you think those guys felt when things like ERA and OPS came around? These are new and better ways to quantify production on the field. Old school scouts are still just as useful. You cant go down to the Dominican and solicit pitch trackers and velocity of balls off the bat from small teams so they use what they see. But the advanced stats are also becoming just as important as the scouts. Just give it a try. You obviously have some time on your hands. Play around with fangraphs at some point and you may come around to the way of thinking for most of the people that read and comment on this site. The coordinator and contributors to this site use advanced statistics all the time. It’s not voodoo. These are statistics, which is about as close to an exact science as there is out there.

      • cal

        August 05, 2015 09:22 AM

        For all those brainwashed on sabermetrics including new controlling partner of Phils ownership; your disrespect for Whiz Kid Mr. Curt Simmons is sad. This man was another Robin Roberts albeit a southpaw and then had a lawn cutting mishap that severed part of his foot. He was never quite the same after the injury. Many men here need to learn to think for themselves and not adopt every fad. Do not sleep on the “eye test.” At this point, I am glad Curt Simmons came back to haunt Philadelphia in 1964 to cost the city many millions of dollars in economic development the World Series would have created when good ol Curt posted two key wins for Cards vs Phils that year in which Phils lost pennant by one game in the still eight team league flavored era packed with the Pete Roses of world type superstars. Remember, Phils only broke through to win their first series since 1915 only after acquiring Mr. Peter Rose. Good Day

      • cal

        August 05, 2015 09:37 AM

        Just reviewed 2009 World Series. Hamels only started one game and was hammered. Why did he only get one start when Pedro Marinez got two starts and Blanton got one start? I guess Phils knew Hamels could not Handle it. Or maybe Hamels had Hernia carrying all that cash.

      • cal

        August 05, 2015 12:52 PM

        The new majority owner announced he wants a sabermetrics staff. A fan said the Oaklands have been using it for years and produced low cost roster titles. If so, where the heck have Phils been? You men need to direct your suggestions toward Phils brass and not me. I never had, will never have and currently have no interest in advanced statistics. I simply tune in and up my esp n take my chances on any given topic. Maybe Phila Phils need to change name to Phila Psychokinesis and start getting a brain on to move the pea in their advantageous directions. Perhaps this current tragic roster could have been avoided and they can levitate Ruiz, Lee, Howard and Utley out of town.

      • bubba0101

        August 05, 2015 01:48 PM

        Cal, in my right mind I cannot respond to much of what you said except for the fact that there are other playoff series before the world series where pitchers are needed to pitch. And in the series before the 2009 World Series, Cole Hamels pitched twice. The second of those times being in Game 5 that clinched the series. Thats the sole reason why he only pitched once in the World Series that year. And in the other game, Game 1, he outdueled a guy by the name of Clayton Kershaw. You may not have heard of him since hes not from the 60’s but hes pretty good and was pretty good in 2009.

  14. AMelson

    August 05, 2015 01:40 PM

    I’m stoked with the trade. Rube did better than we thought he would. The current win streak can’t go on, but it’s encouraging to see the team come together and win against teams that should be taking 2/3 from us. If they can pull it together with the skeleton crew we have right now, I’m hopeful for the 2017 season to be a competitive one.

    • cal

      August 05, 2015 04:38 PM

      Hammels pitched a measely four and one-third innings in game three and got drilled. Phils bring this man back on short rest for minimum a relief appearance or if I am the mgr I bring him back ala Chris Short to start another game before I give the ball to washed up Pedro Martinez. I guess Phils knew they were dealing with a prima donna. Lee won two games in this series. Phils wasted three games using washed up men Pedro and Blanton. Good job Phils bosses.

      • cal

        August 05, 2015 05:56 PM

        A fan said Hammels did such great work vs Dodgers to clinch pennant and that is why Hammels only started one game in 2009 World Series. Big prevarication. Hammels got hammered vs rockies in game 2 and took the loss with 4 earned runs yielded in a total whopping 5 innings. In pennant playoff the vastly over rated Hammels got hammered for 8 hits and 4 earned runs in merely 5 1/3 innings as the fan said cole outdueled kershaw who himself got drilled in 8-6 game. the fan said hammels clinched pennant in game 5. big joKE; hammels got hammered again in only 4 1/3 innings of work. phils fans you funny/ this pampered hammels could have eaten more innings in world series; why did mgmt baby him?

      • cal

        August 05, 2015 07:22 PM

        Halladay averaged 14 wins over 4 seasons with Phils for mega bucks. These numbers are similar to Hammels.. This man was old in baseball yrs when acquired. Baseball is a very very young man’s game. Have Phils learned this yet?

      • Jake

        August 05, 2015 09:15 PM

        Holy crap grammar must not have been taught in school back then! Oh and by the way, it’s HAMELS, not Hammels.
        Since ERA is the only stat you care about (lol), here’s Hamels career postseason ERA: 3.09, which in incredible, even despite his disastrous 2009, which has already been addressed, but you continue to ignore. Then again, you are incapable of comprehending the stats presented to you so that’s a hopeless case. Now, let’s check out Chris Short’s postseason stats…OH WAIT WHERE ARE THEY?? lol
        We get it. You prefer baseball from your day. Fine, you are entitled to that opinion. If you aren’t even going to try to acknowledge the value of advanced stats, however, then please just keep your opinions to yourself, because you are just trolling the intelligent and productive discussion we all enjoy here. There’s a reason EVERY single one of your posts is getting so many “down votes.” We’ve heard plenty of your babbling about how you feel about the current team, and the random “never-weres” from your era that you think could have been aces in today’s game, despite the fact that you ADMIT you haven’t really watched the Phillies in decades. If you think everyone is so unqualified to comment about “your era” since some of us weren’t around then, then you also shouldn’t have any opinion about today’s game since you don’t watch it, and haven’t followed any of the intelligent baseball discussion from the past half-century.

      • Jake

        August 05, 2015 09:21 PM

        Oh, and don’t drag Roy Halladay into this, especially if you’re going to use a completely pointless stat like starting pitcher’s wins. You weren’t around to watch him, so you probably missed him throw a Perfect Game , a post-season no-hitter, and win a Cy Young award, among many other fantastic accomplishments. Regardless of how his career ended, that was one of the best trades the Phillies ever made, and I would do it again every time.

    • 100Bucks

      August 05, 2015 10:02 PM

      Does anyone else find themselves watching the Phillies, rooting for them to win, and then worrying that they are going to win themselves out of a great draft pick?
      Is it better for Hernandez, Herrera, Giles, Nola, and Franco to keep on playing well OR is it better for this team to lose?

      • David

        August 06, 2015 12:31 AM

        @100Bucks – I’ve actually been hoping that Bill will write something about the very issue you raise (about cheering for wins in a lost season working at cross-purposes with draft position, and the implications of the same for the Phils at this unique juncture). In the meantime here’s a link to a 2013 piece from BA on the relative value of draft position as measured by career WAR:

        www.baseballamerica.com/draft/top-100-draft-flashback/

        It may provide some insight into the possible implications of a slip in draft position (though I’d be very interested to hear Bill’s and others’ thoughts on the real impacts for the Phils 2016 draft given this team’s current and projected near to mid-term needs and the talent likely to be available – e.g. what are the reasonably expected consequences for this team if they were to slip from #1 to #5)

        Also, I seem to remember the issue of this inherent tension coming up in a piece here on CA in the past couple of years with a response (perhaps from Bill, Eric L., or as a response to a Crashbag question). If I recall correctly, it settled on not actively cheering for your team to lose (while implicitly acknowledging that, if they lose anyway, there’s at least some potential consolation down the line). Still sounds fairly reasonable, even in this otherwise strange season.

      • cal

        August 06, 2015 03:51 AM

        Roy Halladay did not produce commensurate with the bucks Phils gifted him. Who works for Phils. The guys are Santa Claus. Roy delivered no pennant or world title in his four years therefore he was a failure for Phils and fans regarding roi. On top of that, his body fell apart. Cliff Lee has averaged eight wins in five yrs in Phila. He is another Santa Claus finder. Hamels averaged eleven point five wins per yr in nine point five yrs in Phila. Meager returns for mega bucks. Lee gave meager returns for mega bucks. I am getting my shirt that says on back; Lee Hamels Halladay and maybe a Phils scout will see me warming up at an old timers reunion game and slap me with a Santa Claus contract too. Instead of unemployment line, old gents from baseball past can feed off Phils it appears. At least Lee was on a pennant winner.

      • cal

        August 06, 2015 04:39 AM

        Roy Oswalt was another Phils fantasy pipe dream overpaid old timer. Who does work for Phils. Anybody with a brain on. If fans are fortunate, the new majority owner can spring for broomsticks this autumn so these ineffective front office types can fly away.

      • Jake

        August 06, 2015 09:51 AM

        cal, I’m sorry, I tried. You are either completely clueless (especially since you haven’t watched any games recently), or just posting these ridiculous arguments to get responses, which I continue to fall for. I can list numerous examples that contradict your points here, but it’s pointless since you haven’t seen any of the games. Your logic is incredibly flawed, because wins are an incredibly flawed statistic. This isn’t basketball where a star player can dominate the game and almost completely influence its outcome. In basketball you play both ends of the court. In baseball, a pitcher can’t control how his defense performs behind him, or how his offense supports him in the other half of the inning. Roy did everything possible his first couple of years to try to bring a title to Philly.

      • cal

        August 06, 2015 01:54 PM

        Wins mean the whole ball of wax. It is the in toto Gestalt of what a pitcher should be. Many intangibles are in that equation that hamels never possessed. Lefty Carlton did not cry like hamels when his ’72 Phils could not hit and had an average defensive posture. Study how many times Steve won games of 1-0 or 2-1 and how many innings he logged and how many he fanned. Lefty simply bore down to win 27 times for a team worse than current club. In my view, that Lefty achievement is one of the 7 sports wonders of the world ranking in the top 3. Hats off to Cartlon’s super human efforts. And thank you Pete Rose for being the missing link to push Phils over brink to 1st title since 1915. Charley Hustle changed the culture of Phils then with his intangibles also. I love the way he spikes the ball on turf after recording out #3 at 1B. Enjoy your statistics classes men as you juggle the variables while I assemble a team of real men to actually win games on diamond. Have fun. Guten Tag

  15. trade update

    August 08, 2015 10:04 AM

    One word and one word only for Cal = TROLL

    • cal

      August 09, 2015 01:12 AM

      I am the biggest philly fan literally and figuratively. I literally kept a game by game log in 1964 when info was very difficult to acquire through newspapers in New England and WCAU at night wavered as I tried to decipher play by play into wee hours of morning to determine what philly hurler got the decision and or save. I can tell by the venom I receive that the truth hurts pseudo fans. I followed phils on KDKA, with the KDKA scoreboard and WSB and WOR along with mets radio and KMoX as these broadcasts were intelligible at night when the airwaves were clear. WBAL helped also. I was able to pick up at times WCNN Minn. to get summations of phils late games. The west coast games game me much trouble when working on my log of games. The best thing in sports is when a nobody from nowhere comes to control the landscape and that defines the sixty four phils. I dont need to troll. I con troll the vertical and the horizontal if you have any idea what you think that means. Enjoy the game and peace. Dont forget to tune in your espn; for me i simply tune in my esp n take it from there. dont forget to check the Rhine Labs in Durham NC as i suggested earlier. You will be in for a rude awakening.

      • cal

        August 09, 2015 01:17 AM

        correction: WCCO Minn.

      • cal

        August 09, 2015 06:41 AM

        famous chant in baseball lore: “kdka,kdka, kdka SCOREBOARD” Thank you pillar of historical American HeavY INDUSTRY which is MY passion ten thousand more percentage points than philadelphia Mr. phil and Miss Philly

      • Jake

        August 09, 2015 06:56 PM

        “Biggest philly fan literally and figuratively” (whatever that means) who also admits he hasn’t watched the team other than “an inning or two occasionally” in decades. Yeah, that makes sense. Troll, indeed.

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