All in Phillies Organization Need to Get on Same Wavelength

The Phillies, once a paragon of an entire organization pulling the proverbial rope in the same direction, are now becoming somewhat dysfunctional based on recent reports out of the media. Veterans Shane Victorino, Jimmy Rollins and Cole Hamels have all publicly stated that the Phillies played too many games with Domonic Brown in recent years. Additionally, Phillippe Aumont said that he is being told to do two different things by coaches at the Major League level and at the Minor League level.

Let’s start with the Brown issue.

Victorino, via Ryan Lawrence:

“When he got called up early, he was doing well, and then I came back and he ended up sitting on the bench,” Victorino, now with the Red Sox, said of Brown, who hit .237 but also had a home run, two doubles and 11 RBI in 11 games while Victorino was on the DL. “For a young player like that’s it’s not easy sitting on the bench. I don’t care how talented you are, you have to play, especially as a young player, you need to play every day.”

Rollins:

“It’s motivation, certainly,” Jimmy Rollins said of Brown’s regular demotions in the last 2 years. “At the same time, when the organization isn’t showing you any confidence, it doesn’t matter if you motivate yourself. You go down there after being sent down the first time, you [hit]. After they send you down the second time, you go down and [hit]. What the heck do I keep getting sent down for? I come down here, hit .300. I go up there, play once a week and they say I can’t play. It’s hard to be motivated when you can only do so much.”

When asked whether Brown is playing with a clearer head, given the regular playing time, Rollins continued with his pointed criticism of the Phillies’ management.

“When you don’t have to battle the organization, I think you become that way,” Rollins said of playing relaxed. “He was never playing against anyone. It was just the organization thinking he’s ready or not. Every organization has players like that, that they like, but, their fear is he’s not ready. I’m the complete opposite. There’s only one way to find out. Your opinion doesn’t matter to me. Let me go out there, see if I can do it or if I can’t. The numbers will show if you give me a fair shot.”

Hamels, via 94 WIP:

“I just think it takes somebody to kind of get, just comfortable,” Cole Hamels told Angelo Cataldi and the 94WIP Morning Show about Brown. It has been several years of up and down for Brown, splitting time between the Phillies and their minor-league teams. A few injuries along the way didn’t help matters either.

“You’re not worrying about the outside forces of going up-down, up-down, if you don’t perform,” Hamels said. “Just feeling comfortable knowing that you’re confident that you’re going to be there, you’re going to get a shot, and you get a chance to just be yourself and I think that’s kind of what’s hard. When you pull guys up—our ultimate goal is to get to the big leagues, it’s very difficult to stay because they have that anxiety of not wanting to get sent back down. Once they get over it, then they’re able to be themselves and then you get to see what type of player they actually are. Dom Brown has always been like that, now for him to feel comfortable enough to be himself, now he is putting on the show we always knew he was capable of doing.”

Aumont, via CBS Philly:

“It’s very, very confusing,” Aumont told the Express-Times on Saturday. “Baseball is a very confusing thing because you have so many people who have so many different perspectives on how to do things. At the major league level, (bullpen coach) Rod (Nichols) is telling me something, then I come down here and can hear different stuff. Which way do I go? Do I want to please the people while I’m down here right now or do I do the things the big league wants me to do even if I’m not doing the stuff they want me to do here?

“I’m the one who’s caught in the middle and I have to make a decision. We don’t always make the best decisions, nobody does, but I have to find a medium of where I can get to where I want to be and at the same time, try to do some of the things they want me to do. The bottom line is I’m going to do what’s good for me and whatever anybody else says goes in and out for me.”

When you have former players, current long-tenured players, and an in-between prospect making separate but pointed criticisms about the way the organization is run, changes need to be made. Not a firing, mind you, but refocusing and reorganization. These are problems that, left untouched, tend to snowball.

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145 comments

  1. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 02:41 PM

    @btvgeorge

    You may be right about Pence being here not blocking Brown, but as you said, ” Since he is having a good year now what happened in the past could be looked at in a positive manner.” What’s wrong with looking at Pence’s trade as clearing a spot for Brown to shine then? Don’t contradict yourself :)

  2. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 02:45 PM

    @Larry,

    How quickly we forget Mike Schmidt’s career!!! His was even MORE impressive than Howard’s!!! Why is he not playing third base for us??? Instead we have to go trade a Michael Young, WTF???

    Players get old and decline, eventually becoming useless. That’s Ryan Howard. He was great. He no longer is. Hanging on to the past is the worst kind of sentiment, this coming from someone who is accusing the Hamels defenders of sentiment? Really?

  3. joecatz

    June 04, 2013 02:46 PM

    Phillie697,

    I think your missing the reality here.

    brown did all the things you state.

    then he broke his hamate bone.

    In 2011, when he was sent down, SSS or not, he had an OPS of .677 over the previous 45 games.
    his OBP was higher than his SLG, and all he was doing was walking man.

    in august in lehigh, he hit 227/374/.299 with 1 HR 21BB and 24Ks.

    now flash forward to 2012:

    he had 20 ST AB’s because he was HURT. He had to beat out Juan Pierre and Mayberry. He couldn’t cause he WAS HURT!!!

    so they send him to Lehigh to start the season, with the hopes he can get ABs and come up.

    lets look at his 2012 MINOR LEAGUE GAME LOGS

    www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=brown-001dom&type=bgl&year=2012

    take it to may 3rd, 100 ABs in. Browns hitting 256/299/366 with 0 HRS, 6 BB and 19K’s

    explain to me how that warrants a call up? His swing still isn’t there. so lets evaluate in a few weeks.

    on May 29th, 134 plate appearances in, his line has SHRUNK to 250/291/347 still no home runs, 8 walks and 28 Ks.

    He got worse. a LOT WORSE.

    Again, EXPLAIN TO ME HOW BRINGING DOM UP WHEN HE’S HITTING LIKE THAT AT AAA is beneficial to him.

    now imagine if he did that in Philly? The media, the fans, in the middle of the shitstorm that was last season would have eaten him alive.

    Dom Brown outright SUCKED in early 2012.

    then something happened over the next two weeks. over his next 13 games he started hitting. to the tune of 306/370592 with 4 HRs and 5 walks to just 8 Ks. On June 14th he was shoowing signs of life, and they actually discussed bringing him up.

    then he got hurt again!! and was out and rehabbing for a month.

    he then played two weeks at AAA hit 362/412/489 with 1 HR 4 BB and 6 Ks and guess what?

    HE NEVER SAW LEHIGH AGAIN!!!

    thats Dom Browns 2012.

    1. injury in the spring
    2. 140 PA of pure shit
    3. 15 games of DOMINANCE
    4. a month of injury
    5. 15 GAMES OF DOMINANCE
    6. never back down ever again.

    now, don’t think for a second that Ruben didn’t know exactly what Dom was doing at AAA before he traded Hunter Pence at the deadline. he could have held on to pence and dealt him in the offseason. he didn’t because he knew DOM WAS READY. If dom doesn;t heat up? Pence might not go.

    thats reality. not revisionist history. not predictive bullshit.

    Thats the simple fact. Dom Brown sucked until July of last year.

    Now explain to me what you would have done differently (aside from not trading for Pence) and how if Dom, who should have been the player you described above, did everything he did at Lehigh from july of 2011 through july of 2012 he would have been better for it?

    I don’t see it and I don’t see how anyone who looks at the REALITY of what ACTUALLY HAPPENED WITH HIM can either.

    He progressed at his pace.

    The organization had the patience for that to happen

    Dom Brown would not have made this team any better over that same period.

    and if they don’t trade for Pence, they probably platoon him with Mayberry in late 2011 and 2012 still happens.

    but dom wouldn’t have done what he’s doing now then, cause he didn’t do it.

  4. TomG

    June 04, 2013 02:58 PM

    @ Bdawkbdawk

    O, for the love of Bieber! May Flying Spaghetti Monster and all of His Saints and Ministers Preserve Us!

    To a commenter who would bring up Hamels’ offhand comment 4 years ago and his plunking of Bryce Harper as somehow relevant to CH’s pitching and then (evidently in earnest!) go on to accuse me of addressing the ghost of WIP callers past, all I can say is:

    Hahahahahahahaha! Do you actually read the stuff you write before you post it? Because that is literally the second funniest thing I’ve encountered in the past 24 hours.*

    A couple other things:

    Because you don’t like an answer, that doesn’t make it not an answer. Need I point out the enthemematic nature of the logic in “I don’t like this answer; therefore: it is not an answer”?

    To illustrate the point I’m trying to make here – here’s a question for you, Bdawkbdawk (if that even is your real name):

    Yes or no: Do you intend to stop beating your wife? Answer it: Yes or no!

    Because if your “answer” points out that the phrasing begs the question of whether you’re actually beating your wife – indeed, takes as a given that you are – then …

    YOU’RE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTION, you coward! Yes or no: do you intend to stop beating her? I can’t possibly make it any clearer than that.

    Similarly, your question, as posed, takes as a jumping off point that Cole Hamels – whose career numbers and performance are stellar, literally elite – has somehow reached a point, because of a less than stellar first two months (a two months, it must be point out, that has included more than a few really good starts and a lot of bad luck), where it is somehow legitimate to claim he is a horrible pitcher; that he lacks dedication; that he is not worth the money he’s being paid; and furthermore goes on to imply that he was somehow really not even that good in the past (when he was a main cog in the machine that won a world series for us); and you adduce as evidence of his lack of pitching prowess that he … made a comment you don’t care for 4 years ago; intentionally hit Bryce Harper; got his wife pregnant; and (at least this last is marginally probative) had two bad starts at the beginning of this season.

    Excuse me for pointing out that the REAL question is, what the fuck is wrong with people who think that that “evidence” trumps years and years of topnotch pitching and dedication to craft?

    Thus, to YOUR version of “Do you intend to stop beating your wife?” I respond by not accepting the faulty premise that I was ever beating her.

    I get it. You don’t like that answer. I can see why. To me, the fact that you refuse to see it as an answer only further convinces me it’s a really, really good one.

    Or, shorter answer:

    Angry troll is angry.

    (I knew I would come to regret wading in on an issue that my first instinct warned me was merely brought up as an act of trollery. Thus, this is the last thing I’ll have to say on this issue because saying more would be, in my view, feeding a troll.)

    ____
    * The funniest, of course, would be this exchange between Franzke and LA in the sixth inning of last night’s game (all quotations from memory and therefore merely approximate):

    SF: The Dodgers sent down Matt Magill and brought Yasiel Puig up today.

    LA: Right.

    SF: Yah-SELL. Is that how you pronounce it?

    LA: I do not know.

    SF: But you know how to pronounce his last name?

    LA: Yeah. Puig.

    [Silence for a beat]

    SF: Whud you call me?

    This beat out Bdawkbdawk’s comment because Franzke obviously intended to be funny, but badawkbadawk hit comic gold merely by accident, and thus loses points.

  5. Pencilfish

    June 04, 2013 03:09 PM

    There’s another benefit from Dom Brown’s current development: he has only accumulated 1 year of ML service from 2010-2012, so he’s not eligible for arbitration until 2015 and can’t become a free agent until 2018 (age 31). We get to benefit from his peak years while paying below-market price. RAJ is a genius!

  6. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 03:11 PM

    @joecatz,

    And what does Brown’s injury have anything to do with anything? So you’re saying since Utley and Howard are perpetually getting hurt just getting out of bed it seems, that means they don’t belong in the majors and we should send them back to minors to prove themselves?

    It is not disputed that Brown proved that he can handle AAA pitching. While his injury robbed him of his power, in 2011 in AAA he had a .391 OBP. Yes, you read that right, .391. That is not a sign of a player who is over-matched by minor league pitching, just one who can’t drive balls out of the park because he has no power. He could have done that in the majors and start his learning much earlier; if he’s going to hit for no power no matter where he is, who cares where it’s going to be? Instead, we traded for Pence, which you can chalk up to wanting to win since we were in contention, except with Pence around, Brown languished for ANOTHER year; what was our excuse in 2012 then? How the hell did he get only 212 PAs AGAIN? What if what made Dom who he is today is just because he accumulated enough MLB PAs to learn that final step? How do you know that wouldn’t have happened if we gave him 500 PAs last year? Exactly WHAT was different about him last year and this year pre-May that made you think it was better to delay a year? There are NO signs that points to the latter, and everyone and their mother saying the former. I think I rather believe everyone and their mother than RAJ.

    It’s not a matter of whether he warranted a call up. It’s the fact that he was NEVER given that opportunity until now. You’re right about one thing, I’m not going to say this is the biggest blunder of RAJ’s career. Far from it. It’s minor compared to everything else, because you are entirely correct in saying that what’s important is that Dom Brown is still HERE. But it’s just one more on a long list of things that shows RAJ is just too stupid to be a MLB GM.

  7. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 03:14 PM

    @Pencilfish,

    Well, I guess that’s a silver-lining. Maybe we’ll get to see Dom Brown’s rise AND decline all the while paying him peanuts, and by the time he’s eligible for FA, he’ll have declined enough that we won’t ever have to pay him top dollar.

    Except if RAJ is still GM by then, you can bet your life savings he’ll sign Brown to $25M per.

  8. Larry

    June 04, 2013 03:21 PM

    @Philly697
    So you compared Howard to Schmidt, that’s my point right there. The 2 best power hitters in Phillies history. Show a little respect to a guy who is finally getting healthy again. The 5 week run Dom Brown is on, Howard did that for many years.

    I think Schmidt doesn’t play for the Phillies anymore because he’s 63 years old lol Howard is still only 33 and you will see greatness from him again. He’s not done. Mark my words.

    We have Michael Young at 3rd, Delmon Young at Right field, and Ben the Babe Revere in Center, because Ruben decided to blow all the money on 1 guy who is not greatness. He is no ACE. Imagine if we traded Hamels last year, got some prospects. We could have Brown in left, Victorino in center, Pence in right, and had enough money to get a decent 3rd baseman, but at that point it wouldn’t be as important, because we would have a good offense.

    Ya know after our Hamels argument before the Brewers game, did it sink in, when Hamels was booed out of CBP and Victorino got a huge standing ovation in his Boston uniform???? I wonder what RAJ was thinking after those few days??? But hey, our scouting report from 5-7 years ago says Delmon Young can play right field???
    After bringing Michael Martinez up again, I think one day RAJ will eventually rip off his Phillies uniform and reveal that he’s part of the NWO. He came here to destroy the Phillies.

  9. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 03:26 PM

    @Larry,

    I am willing to bet $1,000 that Howard will not be “great” again, whether you mark your word or not. Care to wager?

  10. joecatz

    June 04, 2013 03:30 PM

    Phillie697,

    what does his injury have to do with anything? It has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IT!!!

    Delmon young missed spring training and had a month in the minors! Utley diidn’t play a game until June and had 30 games of ML rehab!!!

    the only difference is Brown had options, so he didn’t START ON THE ACTIVE ROSTER!!!

    in 2011 he played 11 rehab games at AAA before coming up after breaking his Hamate. they were rehab starts. he went 341/431/537 and GOT CALLED UP!!

    he then went 245/333/391 at the ML level and did nothing but walk. for 210 ABs.

    then he went back to AAA and put up virtually the same line 227/374/299!!

    he never put up that OBP at the major league level man!!

    and it is disupted that he handled AAA pitching cause in 2012 he did the same thing. until JUNE 14th!!! because HE WAS HURT TO START THE SEASON!!!

    he didn’t languish!! He was hurt, he rehabbed, he was unproductive, and when he started to produce…

    HE GOT HURT AGAIN!!!

    then they called him up two weeks after he came back!!!

    And to answer this question:

    How do you know that wouldn’t have happened if we gave him 500 PAs last year? Exactly WHAT was different about him last year and this year pre-May that made you think it was better to delay a year?

    are you summizing that he would have played better from April to June last year at the big league level, with only 20 spring training AB’s while they worked to shorten his swing, if he did it at the major league level? that hes some super human machine who doesn’t need to rehab properly?

    It might not have been different, but I don’t see how it would have been better, and at the same time, I can’t imagine any scenario where the added pressure from the fan base and media would have

    1. helped him develop
    2. changed his time frame (he was a good two months behind)

    and in addition, explain please to me how Domonic Brown playing in place of Victorino, Pierre, or Pence in April may and June would have increased the phillies chances of anything?

    there was NO BENEFIT. NONE. Not once he was hurt. Not once Pierre started playing well.

    Shit happens. and Dom was actually playing like shit.

  11. hk

    June 04, 2013 03:30 PM

    Phillie,

    Yes, but that’s just money. When you are willing to have a $175M payroll, it should be easier to overcome wasting money than it is to overcome losing talent.

  12. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 03:33 PM

    @Larry,

    And I have PLENTY of respect for Howard. PLENTY. 2005-2009, he was amazing. Then the power disappeared, and now he’s just treading waters, getting paid a lot of money just to show up, and dragging this team down in the process, while costing us money that you’re complaining so much about with Cole Hamels. Let’s put this in perspective. If we’re not paying an over-the-hill 1B that ridiculous contract, we could essentially have Cole Hamels for free. Surely Cole Hamels don’t look so bad if he was free, right?

    How is it money is an issue with one but not the other?

  13. Bdawkbdawk

    June 04, 2013 03:35 PM

    @TomG

    Very bizarre non-response. I merely asked you if there was a statistical line, that if not met, would indicate that Hamels is worthy of criticism.

    You have not provided an answer to this question. You have not even tried. Instead you escalate and obfuscate and either misread my comments or don’t read them at all.

    I have not asked you a loaded question. Nor am I trying to smuggle a faulty premise into this discussion. There is no premise. Instead I am asking you to seperate your sentimentality from the way you evaluate a player’s success.

    It is quite ironic that you would invoke a Spaghetti Monster. The question I present you with is nearly identical to questions that agnostics have been asking the religious for centuries. Is there something, if proven (or disproven), would make you abandon your faith. You refuse to identify anything that could undermine your faith in Cole. And I am certainly not a troll. I derive no satisfaction from your inane namecalling and shouting.

  14. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 03:35 PM

    @hk,

    Apparently not, because somehow RAJ talked himself into having Douchbag Young as an OF deserving of MLB PAs because he ran out of money.

  15. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 03:38 PM

    @joecatz,

    I think we’ve exhausted our views on this topic. I think Brown could have blossomed earlier, you don’t. You think RAJ didn’t do anything wrong there, I do. But at least we both agree that it’s a beautiful thing that Dom Brown is still here and raking as a member of the Phillies. I’m willing to leave it at that.

  16. joecatz

    June 04, 2013 03:49 PM

    Phillie697,

    I think that if Dom had never broken his hamate, had not been injured in 2012, had the phillies hired Joyner sooner, that yes, he could have blossomed earlier.

    I also think RAJ screwed up epically by calling him up too soon in 2010, for two weeks to then keep him on the bench the rest of the season. I think if anything, that was the single worst move in terms of his development.

    I think RAJ was an idiot for Trading for Pence, but I think he also saw that brown was having a hard time, maturity wise, being the next big thing. from there, 2012 was an epic combination of bad luck, injuries, and confusion for the kid.

    sometime you have to take two steps backwards to take one step forward.

    and the flip side for me is that I don’t know or believe that Dom was really ready to do this before now.

    But i do agree that the fact that hes doing it here, and finally doing it now is utter joy. and whatever the reason, whoever is responsible, I would be crushed if he was doing this somehwere else because I alwasy believed and never faltered that he had this in him.

  17. joecatz

    June 04, 2013 03:51 PM

    so i guess where we differ is that I believe that by rushing him the first time, Raj was careful not to do it again, but never gave in to the pressure that he was a bust. rather, he let him develop at his pace, he just didn’t lt him do it in Philly.

    thats gotta be worth something.

  18. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 03:52 PM

    @joecatz,

    “But i do agree that the fact that hes doing it here, and finally doing it now is utter joy. and whatever the reason, whoever is responsible, I would be crushed if he was doing this somehwere else because I alwasy believed and never faltered that he had this in him.”

    You and I both, you and I both. I get giddy just thinking about it.

  19. Larry

    June 04, 2013 04:14 PM

    @Tom G,
    I totally agree with Bdawk, but your post was entertaining. You say Cole’s career numbers has been stellar and elite, yet he’s only pitched one season under a 3 era in one of the weakest offensive divisions in baseball.
    Coles stats as a Phillie
    ERA 3.42
    whip 1.148

    Now look at Cliff Lee’s 4 years as a Phillie:
    ERA 2.80
    Whip 1.06
    So if Cole is stellar and Elite, then what does that make Cliff Lee????? I think you went way overboard with Cole.

  20. Larry

    June 04, 2013 04:33 PM

    Cole hamels is the 1st Phillies pitcher to have 9 losses before June since 1891 and back then they probably only had a 2 or 3 man rotation lol

    Here’s another funny, pathetic Cole stat. I don’t play fantasy baseball but look at this link www.cbssports.com/mlb/playerrankings/positional/regularseason/SP?&print_rows=9999

    Cole Hamel’s is ranked 233rd best starting pitcher this year???? Lets do some math here. 30 teams 5 starters, some injuries, minor league pitchers get called up. wow!!! Now remember they have a separate category for relief pitchers, so this is just for starting pitchers!!!I can promise you this is not elite lol

  21. LTG

    June 04, 2013 04:34 PM

    “enthemematic”

    TomG!

  22. Bdawkbdawk

    June 04, 2013 04:42 PM

    @LTG

    Gotta love enthymematic. Very handy word. It’s a shame TomG couldn’t keep it in the chamber for a little longer. Applying it to a straw man of his own creation. Too bad.

  23. LTG

    June 04, 2013 04:46 PM

    btvgeorge,

    What exactly is your point? I see one of two possibilities:
    1) The package for Pence was a bad deal
    2) Pence should not have been traded

    Your initial post was a worry about trading Lee because RAJ got hosed in the Pence deal. That looks like 1) to me. If it is also 2) then that is only by inference from 1). I responded to 1). So, now if you want to maintain 2), you have to offer different arguments. Of course, it is not sufficient to merely point out that the Phils have gotten little production from RF because they could have traded Pence and solved that problem by, for example, signing Swisher or retaining Schierholtz for pennies on the dollar production.

    So, is your point 1) or 2)? If 1), why does it matter what the Phillies RFs have done since? If 2), what are the reasons in your view that the Phillies should not have traded Pence, besides simply that they need a good RF and Pence is good?

  24. LTG

    June 04, 2013 05:02 PM

    bdbd,

    TomG’s response to you is to reject your means of measurement as standards for criticism, however round-about his means of expression, which one might call ‘ranting’. He then reconstructs your reason for rejecting that response as not liking the answer because he doesn’t see how it isn’t an answer. It’s not a strawman but it isn’t altogether charitable either.

    On the standards of measure:

    W/L – no bar, not a measure of pitching performance

    ERA – depends on the sample size but always requires further digging, so no bar for criticism can be set with ERA alone

    WHIP – why not just look at BB% and BABIP?

    And, just to reiterate, I think Cole has performed below his own standards this season. But he’s shown improvement over the course of the season and we should expect him to right the ship.

  25. Phillie697

    June 04, 2013 05:04 PM

    @LTG,

    In my “strange RAJ universe” argument, the point was that it’s easier to envision, if anything was to change at all, that RAJ doesn’t trade Pence vs. RAJ getting someone else better to pay RF at the same cost/performance ratio. Hence, not trading Pence, barring that it doesn’t block Dom, would have been an okay idea.

  26. LTG

    June 04, 2013 05:21 PM

    Why are we asking the normative question about RAJ ought to do through a lens of what we anticipate RAJ will do? Shouldn’t we just ask what would the best moves be?

    And how is it easier to envision RAJ keeping Pence than it is to envision him signing Swisher or Bourn, or retaining Schierholtz (really this came out of nowhere)?

  27. LTG

    June 04, 2013 05:21 PM

    edit: “about *what* RAJ ought”

  28. btvgeorge

    June 04, 2013 05:29 PM

    @LTG

    I think Pence should have not been traded for the return we got. I thought the return we got for Pence was a bad deal. If you are going to trade Pence you have to get decent value. We got NOTHING in return for Pence just like we got nothing in return for LEE. Tommy Joseph might be good in a few years and that is a big maybe. Pence was a proven RF and we could really use one right now (like really badly). In fact Pence was a pretty good outfielder. Since 2007 for right fielders up to age 30. Pence is FIRST in WAR!! and for ALL outfielders he is FITH!!in WAR and he was under team control for this year. If you are going to trade away one of the best players at a position you are thin at who is also under team control for multiple seasons you have to get something with decent value in return. RAJ didn’t when he traded away Pence just like he didnt get decent value in return when he traded away Lee. So if you are going to trade away Lee this year dont get peanuts in return like we have in the past.

  29. btvgeorge

    June 04, 2013 05:40 PM

    @ LTG

    “And how is it easier to envision RAJ keeping Pence than it is to envision him signing Swisher or Bourn, or retaining Schierholtz (really this came out of nowhere)?”

    Its easier to envision keeping Pence because he was already on the team and under Phillies control for this year where Swisher or Bourn, or Schierholtz were unrestricted free agents.

  30. Bdawkbdawk

    June 04, 2013 06:18 PM

    @LTG

    Thank you for summing that up. I didn’t realize TomG thought he was answering me. I still think it was a strawman, though. I’m not just mashing keys over here saying “i don’t like your answer, hence its not an answer”. More along the lines of, I don’t consider, diversions and name calling, and rejecting imagined faulty premises an answer. But, nevertheless, a small quibble.

    I also hope my request for certain minimum stats wasn’t misconstrued as “these are the stats I consider appropriate for evaluating a player”. It was an inquiry that I hoped would lead to more meaningful conversation.

    I hope Cole rights ship too. I’m just worried that he will continue to underperform. And based on how I view Cole as a person, I don’t think he is someone I can cheer for if he doesn’t perform (contrast with Chase who i’d probably give a jeter contract to so he never wears another uniform) .

  31. LTG

    June 04, 2013 06:29 PM

    I don’t call a prospect and a guy who could right now be our starting RF nothing. (That he isn’t has nothing to do with the quality of the trade.) I also don’t call a well-regarded prospect haul that hasn’t worked out nothing. I don’t like the Lee deal for other reasons. The prospect haul was not good enough and it was the wrong move given the team’s goals for the near future. But the return wasn’t nothing.

    “Since 2007 for right fielders up to age 30.” This is pretty misleading. Sometimes a certain age group doesn’t produce a great set of players at a particular position. Pence has never had a 5.0 WAR season and he’s averaged ~3 WAR per season. He’s a nice piece; he’s not going to garner a top 100 prospect in the current market, especially when he’s having a down season. If Pence’s 2012 were like his 2013 so far, the Phils would have gotten more for him.

    Suffice to say, Lee is not comparable.

    On envisioning I have no idea what the standards for easier and harder are. That something is the case does not make it easier to envision than something that isn’t the case. The possible worlds are many and it is hard to tell which of them is the actual one. And whatever is the case with envisioning, it is still unclear why that is relevant to the question of what RAJ should do.

  32. LTG

    June 04, 2013 06:48 PM

    bdbd,

    Well the best summative standards are ERA-retrodictors, which try to screen out effects on pitcher’s results that are due to things they don’t (much) control like BABIP. This year Hamels is around 4.00 earned runs per game. That’s not worthy of his contract, but it isn’t that bad and has been steadily improving as we get further from April.

    For Hamels’ career he is around 3.50. And over the time span of his career he is 7th among starters in SIERA (3.41), better than Verlander, Kershaw, and Sabbatthia. (Aside: It’s even better than Lee, but that’s because it includes Lee’s struggles in 06 and 07. I guess many people have forgotten how far Lee fell before becoming one of the most dominant pitchers in the league.) So, Hamels looks a lot like he deserves to be mentioned among the elite starters in the league. Few teams have a pitcher with his track record.

  33. btvgeorge

    June 04, 2013 06:54 PM

    @ LTG

    In determining the return value for Pence I don’t consider Schierholtz in the equation. RAJ never intended for him to be the starting outfielder for more than a couple months. Say he had resigned for the Phillies I might feel different about the trade but he didnt and in reality it looks like RAJ never intended for him to be more than a body to fill the void left by pence for a few months. Also Lee is comparable simply because of what you said about Lee aslo can be applied to the Pence trade, “The prospect haul was not good enough and it was the wrong move given the team’s goals for the near future.”

    Goals for the near future (being this season) were a healthy team and Word Series aspirations but a starting outfield of D. Brown who at the beginning of the season was a big question mark, Ben Revere who is nothing more than a younger Juan Pierre with no power or plate discipline and Delmon Young. No rational GM would hope that starting three should be good enough to win the world series. On paper it sint and even with Dom Brown emerging as an all star it STILL ISNT. So with the Lee trade and your words in mind of “near future aspirations” the Pence deal was bad.

    I agree that Pence might not garner a top 100 prospect in todays market especially considering he was traded when he had a down year. So you dont trade him and your starting right field is not a black hole.

  34. Larry

    June 04, 2013 07:02 PM

    LTG,
    It’s very tough to compare how a guy did in the American League vs The National League. It’s a lot tougher to pitch in the AL. Doc was pitching in the AL East against against the big boys and the steroid guys. Imagine how Hamels would be in the AL East??? He still has nightmares about the Yankees. With a DH, it makes it a lot tougher on the pitchers. Lee and Doc both won CY young awards in the AL.

    If you want to compare apples to apples, Lee and Doc both have better ERAs and Whips as Phillies than Cole. Let’s not forget shutouts and complete games either with ways less games started as Phillies for Lee and Doc.

  35. LTG

    June 04, 2013 07:29 PM

    1: MMMMM, golden delicious apples are among the best tasting apples.

    2: Oh yeah, well, red delicious and granny smith are the best of the best!

    1: Yeah, but golden delicious are among the best tasting apples.

    2: Nuh-uh, because if they were they’d be as good as red delicious and granny smiths.

    1: ?

  36. Larry

    June 04, 2013 08:17 PM

    I think your apples are rotten, just like that response.

  37. Sean

    June 05, 2013 12:29 AM

    Just throwing this one out there since I just read all of these comments and no one mentioned anything about these two points.

    A) Someone said Singleton was suspended for 50 games and that the “drugs” might be the reason for his great AA stats last year. Dude, he was suspended for smoking pot, which is legal in some states. And I don’t think weed is on the official list of PED’s. He is only in A to get himself ready. He will be in AA quickly, and I wouldn’t be surprised if he was a September Callup and starting for the Stros in 2014.

    B) Another key in the HORRIBLE Pence trade #1 was Domingo Santana, who is only 20 with a .260/.361/.526 line in AA. He is another future piece that this farm system could use.

    IMO, 6 years of Singleton, Santana, and Cosart > 1 year of Pence, 6 years of Tommy Joseph, 2 months of Nate Shierholtz, who they had to cut more then likely because Amaro gave Laynce Nix a 2 year deal, and 6 Years of Seth Rosin. That trade is by far the worst deal Amaro made. Even if he didn’t believe in Dom for the stretch run, there were other, just as good, and much cheaper, options for the Phils that he neglected due to his fixation on Pence (Willingham was readily available if memory serves me right). You could have let him walk at the end of the year and had Dom Brown start in 2012 right away.

  38. hk

    June 05, 2013 06:07 AM

    Larry: “If you want to compare apples to apples, Lee and Doc both have better ERAs and Whips as Phillies than Cole.”

    How is that comparing apples-to-apples? Cole’s statistics with the Phillies include years when run-scoring throughout MLB was much higher than it was in the years that Lee and Halladay were Phillies. Since Roy has been a Phillie, his ERA is 3.20 while Cole’s ERA is 3.16.

    By the way, you can feel free to use the run scoring environment commentary in your debate with Phillie697 about Ryan Howard. After all, when compared to league average, Howard’s 2011 was almost equal to his 2010 season and better than his 2008 campaign.

  39. Phillie697

    June 05, 2013 12:50 PM

    @LTG,

    Hence why I had to qualify my comments as “in a strange RAJ universe” :) And as this off-season proved, he didn’t sign Swisher, Bourne, etc. because he ran out of money. Had he kept Pence that would have even larger of a problem.

  40. Phillie697

    June 05, 2013 12:56 PM

    @hk,

    Hey, I said Ryan Howard’s bat was decent in 2011 :P Plus, I ranked him among his peers in the same time period (unlike what Larry tried to do with Hamels and Lee/Halladay), so the run scoring environment argument doesn’t apply; after all, 16 other 1B did better him THAT year, and he ranked below his teammates THAT year.

    Oh btw, since Greg Maddux was clearly the best pitcher of the Braves in the 1990s, that means Tom Glavine and John Smoltz must have been garbage according to Larry’s logic.

  41. btvgeorge

    June 06, 2013 11:03 AM

    @ Phillies697

    “Hence why I had to qualify my comments as “in a strange RAJ universe” :) And as this off-season proved, he didn’t sign Swisher, Bourne, etc. because he ran out of money. Had he kept Pence that would have even larger of a problem.”

    Again keeping pence only does one thing. it eliminates the need to sign Delmon Young . I am literally shaking me head you don’t understand this. It would have no effect on left field where Domonic Brown plays. They are two different positions.

    “Amaro: “Ideally Young will be the everyday right fielder.”

    See what that quotes demonstrates?? We had to sign Young because we traded away our starting right fielder. Domonic Brown plays right field NOT left field and thus keeping Pence does not block Brown.

    “Had he kept Pence that would have even larger of a problem.”

    This quote is wrong and based more on paranoia then a basis of how the Phillies have intentionally constructed this years team. RAJ and all the front office wanted Brown to start this year regardless of who was in right. Domonic Brown plays left and Hunter plays right there is no blocking involved if they are both on the team. The only thing Pence blocks is the signing of Delmon Young. Which is the larger problem we are looking at now. Pence and Brown playing time is independent of each other.

  42. btvgeorge

    June 06, 2013 11:20 AM

    Should have read Pence plays right field NOT left field….

  43. Phillie697

    June 06, 2013 07:08 PM

    @btvgeorge,

    Looks like you should also learn to read as well. My saying “Had he kept Pence that would have even larger of a problem” means he would have had an even larger money problem, since that’s $13M more on the payroll.

    Honestly at this point I have no idea what you’re arguing about anymore. None of it makes any sense to me anymore.

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