We Are All Mortal

In the hysteria of Roy Halladay‘s regular season perfect game against the then-Florida Marlins and post-season no-hitter against the Cincinnati Reds, it was easy to view the right-hander as atypical, superhuman even. The consistency of nine consecutive years at the pinnacle of Major League pitching, the clean mechanics, the businesslike attitude and yeoman work ethic, what flaws did he actually have?

Greg Maddux pitched well into his forties, and considering the run environment of his time, “well” also describes his performance. Randy Johnson was able to keep his ERA below 4.00 a couple times as he pitched into his mid-40′s. John Smoltz did it, David Wells did it. Heck, even Jamie Moyer did it. Why couldn’t Halladay?

The sudden decline of Halladay is a stark reminder of our fleeting mortality, and I don’t mean that in some pseudo-intellectual way. “My god, we are all going to die some day!” No, a reminder that no matter how good a player may seem, his decline is inevitable. Mike Schmidt, the greatest third baseman in baseball history, announced his retirement on May 30, 1989, a sobbing mess in front of a throng of reporters in the Phillies clubhouse. He had posted a .117/.247/.167 slash line in the month of May. Steve Carlton, one of the best left-handed pitchers in baseball history and owner of four Cy Young awards, petered out of baseball with a 5.72 ERA in his final three seasons.

Today, Halladay allowed nine runs in 2.1 innings to the Marlins, who entered the game with baseball’s worst offense, averaging 2.71 runs per game. For perspective, the next-worst offenses (the Nationals and Blue Jays) averaged 3.45 runs per game. Only a portion of the offensive explosion can be credited to the Marlins hitters themselves, as Halladay walked four and hit two batters, something he had never done even once in his career until today. The nine runs in 2.1 innings marks Halladay’s worst start since April 29, 1999 when he allowed 11 runs in 2.1 innings to the Anaheim Angels. His ERA now sits at 8.65.

This is one start after Halladay surrendered eight runs in 3.2 innings to the Cleveland Indians, and it is his fourth terrible start in seven expeditions to the rubber this season. And one of many terrible starts if you extend back to last season.

So soon after the game, nothing has been announced yet. Many speculate a trip to the DL for Halladay is inevitable. [UPDATE: DL it is.] Some have already filed an obituary to the editor. Still others — like Mitch Williams — suggest Halladay’s issues are fixable. Halladay himself has said all along his issues are mental, not physical. We still don’t know how this story ends, but we do know we’re running out of pages and we’re curling the back cover.

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46 comments

  1. Steve

    May 05, 2013 06:32 PM

    He’s through.

  2. Richard

    May 05, 2013 06:36 PM

    I have to wonder if his legendary workout regimen hasn’t had something to do with his problems. It’s a lot of extra miles to put on that body.

    Just sad to watch though.

  3. BobSmith77

    May 05, 2013 07:14 PM

    I hate to say it but Halladay seems like he has fibbing/lying a lot to the media since this spring.

    He said post-game that he felt fine all year including in spring training until his start in Pittsburgh. I find that along with his comments about it ‘being all mental’ largely an exaggeration or even fabrication.

  4. Jesse

    May 05, 2013 08:11 PM

    I’m not sure why we should act surprised or offended when players lie about their health.

  5. Cutter McCool

    May 06, 2013 12:25 AM

    Not just Halladay, this whole team is through. They got a grand total of 5 hits in two games–they can’t win even with the good pitching they aren’t getting.

    But it is exciting to watch because every night theyre a no hit threat. Of being no hit, that is.

  6. boredjake

    May 06, 2013 04:18 AM

    That was prob. his last start as a Phillie. Thanks Roy for your effort and for years of great starts.
    Is this the domino that starts the fire sale?

  7. the Philly sports desert

    May 06, 2013 06:10 AM

    Too early to think of a fire sale as we have no leverage but it isn’t to early to be looking at better ways to spend your 7-9 PM and Sunday afternoon hours. DB is the only hitter that has any possible upside on the field. I only hope DY can begin hitting enough so he’ll have value come the trade deadline as he just isn’t someone I really want on the team long term. Unfortunately, if the Fire Sale starts and RAJ is still the GM, I don’t have much faith in the ability to make trades that will benefit us in the long run. The minor league teams are all below .500, which is a sad state. It may be a while before a Philly team is in the playoffs.

  8. TomG

    May 06, 2013 06:18 AM

    Even if you split yesterday’s game into two games – which is easy enough for me to do, since my son and I spent the first 3 innings stuck in traffic on 95 less than 2 miles from the park due to the city of Philadelphia’s incompetence, which is one thing we can all still depend on – you get a three inning 9-0 loss, for most of which Doc pitched; then, in the second game – the game my son and I saw (getting there just in time to see Ruggiano rob Utley) – they still lost, 5-2.

    Take the problem that is Doc’s pitching (and that statement is sad enough in itself) out of the equation; magically erase those 9 runs and …

    … the Phillies still lost 5-2. To the Marlins. That bears repeating: To the Marlins.

    The headlines will scream “DOC!” but the problem is waaaay larger than that.

    It is now far too easy to envision them returning home winless from 7 games out west just in time to be spanked for two games, yet again, by Cleveland in CBP.

    The Doc story is sad.

    The team is verging on pathetic.

  9. Ed Goldman

    May 06, 2013 07:34 AM

    If all these suggestions/proposals happen this year to start the overhaul completely remaking the team, who is picking someone else’s prospects in return for the Phillies fading stars? RAJ and his scouting crew. What have they done to inspire such confidence that the prospects they might receive will be the beginning of a positive Phillies turnaround? History is a great teacher.

    Trading Cliff Lee to Seattle and the prospects received:

    Philippe Aumont. Maybe the best of all the prospects received, but I don’t feel my heart fluttering. We’ll see. Build the future team around him?

    Tyson Gillies, CF. Hitting .148 in 18 games in AAA.

    JC Ramirez, P. In AAA bullpen; has an ERA of 8.53.

    Trading Shane Victorino to LA Dodgers and prospects received:

    Josh Lindblom, P. Gone. In AAA in Rangers system.

    Ethan Martin, P. At AAA Lehigh Valley. 1-2 with 7.66 ERA.

    Hunter Pence to SF and the prospects received:

    Tommy Joseph, C. At AAA Lehigh Valley with .204 BA with .259 OBP and 8 passed balls in 17 games.

    Seth Rosin, P. At AA Reading with a 1-2 record.

    Nate Schierholtz, OF. Gone for nothing. Hitting .295 with an OPS of .904 for the Cubs.

    What else have these talent evaluators brought to the Phillies in the last few years?

    Ty Wigginton. Signed to 1-year contract. Phillies split his $4 million salary with Colorado. Cost $2 million …for him?

    Juan Pierre (best one-year signing at minor league contract). Pierre is your best signing? Yikes!

    Chad Durbin (again). Signed to $1.1 million 1-year contract.

    Chad Qualls. Signed to $1.15 million one-year contract.

    Ross Gload. Signed to a 2-year $2.2 million contract.

    Danys Baez. Signed to 2-year $5.25 million contract.

    Wilson Valdes. 1-0 as a pitcher, and led to…

    Jeremy Horst in the bullpen.

    Jose Contreras. At age 38, signed to $5.5 million 2-year contract.

    Roy Oswalt. Phillies paid $12 million (Houston picked up $11 million more) for 1½ years. Oswalt also got additional $2 million to not play when Phillies did not pick up 2012 option.

    Michael Martinez. Rule 5 pick. Great acquisition.

    David Herndon. Rule 5 pick. Gone. Released on waivers.

    Brian Sanches. Released.

    Jim Thome (second time). ‘Nuff said.

    Delmon Young. I’m waiting for a ball to bounce off his head. Maybe he can hit. Maybe.

    Ben Revere. Will he shine like Paul Revere?

    Mike Fontenot. Hector Luna. Pete Orr.

    Kevin Frandsen. Bench player.

    So, best acquisitions to date: Juan Pierre (now with Marlins) and Kevin Frandsen. Maybe Jeremy Horst. The trading of Lee, Pence and Victorino were salary dumps with little to show for it in prospects …so far.

    Anyone optimistic that the Gang That Couldn’t Trade Straight is ready for a dramatic talent-selection turnaround? I’m not arguing against trading some of this team’s starters if this team performs like April through the All-Star break, but why does this team still need to be dumping salaries? They’re ready to hit the lottery when they get their new TV deal signed. Why not trade for established stars at mucho bucks, like Jason Upton (oops, gone to the Braves) …or Chase Headley and Giancarlo Stanton? Not likely.

  10. Ed Goldman

    May 06, 2013 08:14 AM

    Tyson Gillies sent down to AA. Will he be the one come off the 40-man roster?

  11. Jonny5

    May 06, 2013 08:53 AM

    This…. must… be.. Bizarro world! Top 5 reasons why it must be.

    1)Kyle Kendrick is a good pitcher in this world.
    2)Roy Halladay does not pitch good in this world
    3)Kyle Kendrick is coveted and is owned on my fantasy league.
    4)Roy sits on the scrap heap in my fantasy league.
    5)Yuniesky Betancourt has a 118 OPS+ which is higher than any Phillies player, it’s May. His BA is higher than any Phillie besides M.Y. He has more home runs than any Phillie, again it’s May. 1/5th of the season gone..
    On top of all that,Philly was singing sweet caroline all week, which still makes me sick even if it is a show of good will.

    What is going on here? I’m confused!

    Ok, but on a more serious note. I hope Roy gets straightened out soon. This is not good for the Phillies. Not at all.

  12. Mike B.

    May 06, 2013 09:15 AM

    The Charlie Gordon-like arc of Roy Halladay’s career depresses the crap out of me.

  13. Iatrogenes

    May 06, 2013 09:35 AM

    My memory often fails me as I dodder on, but name me a prospect worth remembering under the RAJ regime. (Let us give a Hail Mary and pray that Jesse Biddle becomes a successful major league pitcher.) Rollins, Howard, Utley and Ruiz were all drafted by Ed Wade. The first Jim Thome signing was done by Wade, the second by RAJ. Shane Victorino was also signed by Wade, and Jason Werth was signed by Pat Gillick. And of all the “prospects” traded away to get Lee and Halladay, who among them is a shining light? What great prospects were given away to get Oswalt? (Another prayer for Jonathan Singleton-if he can stop putting funny things into his body.) The Phillies farm system is ranked either 24th or 27th by the experts who follow this stuff a gazillion times more than me. The Phillies are also near the bottom in paying over-the-slot money for above-average prospects, have a weak (compared to competitors) Latin America development program, and almost never pay top money for proven outstanding international stars who are free agents. International signings are not subjected to the draft; it’s just a buyers market. In a recent poll among draft experts of the top 10 international signings for 2013, not one was signed by the Phillies. In 2012, considered a bumper crop of international talent by these experts, not a single Phillies signing in the top 15. Of course, the 2012 MLB agreement caps international signings, but not before. We can agree that signing and developing prospects is a crap shoot, but it’s the same crap shoot for the other 31 MLB teams.

    How would you like Yu Darvish in Philly immediately at $10 million a year for six years? The Rangers thought it was a good idea. And how about a 26-year-old outfielder named Yoenis Céspedes for $9 million a year for four years …and in the Phillies ballpark? He was seen as the best player to come out of Cuba in the last several years. The lowly A’s thought he was worth it. And he seems to be. The Rangers (again) signed infielder Jurickson Profar at age 16 for about $850,000; he made his MLB debut at 19. And, yes, I accept that recently the Phillies were never near the top of the draft list (one of the plights of recent success), but it is difficult to look at the Phillies, and RAJ, without acknowledging having a poor record at evaluating talent, making poor strategic decisions (this year’s cheapo outfield, for example), and a poor record at signing international free agents.

    What I see is an organization, while raking in the dough, taking few risks (OK, resigning Lee was a pleasant surprise) and invests way too little in the future. I get that Dave Montgomery is Mr. Happy, the feel-good cuddly face of the ownership group I call The Hiddens, but it seems to me to be mostly about money. Competitiveness is a means to the end of making more money, not an end in itself. Is that what’s constraining RAJ? Or is it also poor evaluation of talent and his disdain for data to help make informed decisions …or both. I don’t see a promising future ahead. (I offer another prayer hoping I’m wrong!) The Yankees recreate themselves on the fly. A new ownership group in LA is trying to push the Dodgers ahead of the pack. As do the Rangers. At least they’re trying.

    Can we say the same for the Phillies ownership and management group?

  14. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 10:16 AM

    latrogenes,

    I’ve been saying all along that MLB is about making money, so I am happy to see that someone else has realized that, too. I’m sure that winning is great, too, but that’s not the primary goal of ownership and management. You mentioned talent evaluation. With declining attendance and win-loss record, ownership/management will focus on salary dumps to avoid losing money. Let’s hope that it also results in better talent evaluation, so the Phillies can continue to put a decent product on the field and decrease the chance of losing even more money.

  15. Mike B.

    May 06, 2013 10:16 AM

    I don’t think ownership’s willingness to spend money is the issue here.

  16. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 10:19 AM

    Bill,

    Now that’s virtually certain that Halladay is going to the DL, it would be great to estimate who should take his spot and has the best chance to succeed on a long-term basis. Cloyd? Morgan? Biddle? It is probably not realistic to expect the spot to be filled externally at this point.

  17. Phillie697

    May 06, 2013 11:26 AM

    Oh great, now I’m going to get to read all these comments about how RAJ sucks… This is going to be a long season.

  18. Cutter

    May 06, 2013 11:41 AM

    @TomG -

    While it’s hard to defend the Phillies hitters in the past two games, I will say that Halladay’s performance likely took most of the fight out of the Phillies yesterday.

    When Roy Halladay gets shelled like that, I can imagine it must be insanely deflating for the team.

    Of course, that doesn’t excuse Saturday’s pathetic display while Hamels was actually pitching well.

  19. hk

    May 06, 2013 12:30 PM

    Iatrogenes,

    Your question of whether ownership is restraining RAJ by preventing him from spending more is off-base. RAJ took over the 2008 World Champions, a team with a $98M payroll, and was seemingly given a blank checkbook because Phillies ownership was printing money at a time – remember the financial crisis that coincided with the 2008 victory – when the rest of the world was cutting spending and deleveraging. Over the first three years of his tenure, RAJ increased the team’s payroll by 67% while the other 29 teams’ payrolls increased by < 3%.

    Blame poor decisions or bad luck if you want, but why would you blame the owners of the team with the 3rd highest payroll in MLB for the team's current predicament?

  20. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 01:10 PM

    hk,

    Why do you assert that RAJ had/has *unlimited* flexibility with how he spends the owners’ money? That’s fantasy. RAJ may have spent large amounts of money on established MLB players, but the Phillies have not been a factor in signing international free agents. It may be that RAJ doesn’t want to pursue these players, but it could also come from ownership. Who knows?

  21. Phillie697

    May 06, 2013 01:40 PM

    @Pencilfish,

    Still defending RAJ, I see :)

  22. hk

    May 06, 2013 01:54 PM

    Pencilfish,

    You are right if you ignore the inclusion of the word seemingly. I know that he did not have unlimited flexibility and I assume that he even had a budget for the MLB team’s payroll…probably to the luxury tax limit. You are wrong; however, when you say the Phillies have not been a factor in signing international players. They have signed international players – Carlos Tocci comes to mind immediately – under RAJ’s watch and they were rumored to be one of the finalists for Jorge Soler. Are you suggesting that you believe, if RAJ had wanted to sign Yoenis Cespedes instead of Papelbon, that ownership would have rejected it?

  23. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 04:46 PM

    hk,

    No offense, but signing Tocci at age 16 for a $759k bonus hardly qualifies as being “a factor in signing international players”. Certainly not in the same ballpark as Darvish, Soler or Cespedes. I heard Soler signed a 9-yr, 30M contract with the Cubs,and Cespedes got a 4-yr, 36M contract, for example.

    I can’t believe the Phillies would have paid this much for either. Whether it is the GM or ownership who might object, I don’t know. I do know that historically the Phillies have not been a factor in international signings, to their own detriment. Remember they refused to pay J.D. Drew in 1997. The conservative approach to signing unproven players is an organizational trait.

  24. Phillie697

    May 06, 2013 04:56 PM

    @pencilfish,

    The FO’s philosophy of drafting high school, tool-sy players during the amateur draft belies your conclusion, as high school players are often more unproven and riskier, which the FO itself admits. I don’t agree with you the organizational trait is to take the conservative approach to signing unproven players. After all, all them high school kids they drafted have to be signed too, no?

  25. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 05:16 PM

    Phillie697,

    I may convert to a RAJ-hater by early June, if the team keeps playing like this. Then, we’ll have something in common :-)

    RAJ is a just a cog in the organization. It is illogical to blame him for every bad signing, draft pick or missed opportunity. He deserves a share of the blame (or praise) for every move, as do the players, coaches, scouts and owners.

  26. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 05:20 PM

    Phillie697,

    I stand corrected. I should have said signing unproven international and high-upside players to “large” contracts, such as Soler, Cespedes, J.D. Drew, etc.

  27. hk

    May 06, 2013 05:23 PM

    Pencilfish,

    I agree that Tocci and Maikel Franco did not receive the hype or money that Soler and Cespedes received, but I’m not sure why that is even relevant to where this whole conversation began. If RAJ went to ownership last off-season and told them there’s a great opportunity to sign a Cuban OF for $36M over 4 years and the signing won’t cost the team a 1st round pick or put it over the luxury tax limit (or whatever budget they otherwise impose), do you think Monty and the Invisible Owners would have rejected him?

  28. Phillie697

    May 06, 2013 05:32 PM

    @Pencilfish,

    I’m pretty sure there have been many-a-time when someone in these comments sections claimed that if the people here were so much better than RAJ, they would be running the Phillies and not RAJ. Except, had RAJ just came to this blog and blindly followed the collective advice of the frequent commentors of this blog (and the blog’s authors themselves, of course), without even an ounce of processing the information himself, this team would be in a better place, which even you cannot dispute. What does that say to you that a bunch of amateurs, and make no mistake that we are amateurs, would have done a better job than our esteemed GM?

    I think a team with the 3rd-highest payroll in baseball should at least get someone of Brian Cashman’s caliber to GM the team, nevermind someone just average like Drayton Moore (yes, even Drayton Moore is better than RAJ), but certainly not RAJ. At this point I’m pretty certain Joe Maddon is a better GM than RAJ, and Maddon isn’t even a GM!!!

  29. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 05:32 PM

    hk,

    Whether it was RAJ or the owners who rejected it, I don’t know, but the Phillies historically have not signed expensive international players, even before RAJ’s tenure, so your question needs to be extended to the pre-RAJ period to determine who or why any such signings never materialized.

  30. Phillie697

    May 06, 2013 05:39 PM

    @Pencilfish,

    I do agree that the FO doesn’t seem to want to dump too much money into signing unproven players, as one of the draws of high school players is that they are generally cheaper to sign. However, it could just be a risk-reward analysis, that if we’re taking higher risks, then we shouldn’t pay so much. There isn’t anything inherently suspect about that philosophy; spending less on each player but getting a bunch of players who may be higher risk, in aggregate, should produce equal value if the valuations are done correctly at all levels.

    Of course, the real question is if that’s what they really are doing, and if they DO get the valuations done correctly at all levels. Giving RAJ’s track record so far, I think the answer to both questions are a resounding “no.” He’s the GM. Maybe he’s not ultimately to blame for ALL of it, but he is the guy who decided to take the job where he is ultimately the person people blame. After all, he should be responsible for everyone below him, and quite frankly, firing the owner is not an option for us.

  31. Pencilfish

    May 06, 2013 10:43 PM

    Phillie697,

    Perhaps you consider yourself a better GM than RAJ, but not me. I am truly an amateur (as you put it). Outside of fantasy baseball, I never spent a day evaluating talent, scouting, negotiating contracts, making trades, overseeing player development at the major and minor league levels, etc. I can’t brag about something I have never done.

    Firing a GM that took the team to 3 straight post-seasons less than 18 months ago? Now you are playing ownership…

  32. hk

    May 07, 2013 10:07 AM

    Pencilfish,

    I find it odd that you want to have ownership share the blame for the team’s current predicament (unwillingness to spend on unproven players) yet you seem willing to give RAJ full credit as the GM that took the team to 3 straight post-seasons. Are you aware that RAJ took over a team that had just won a World Championship, that had many stars in their primes, that had a top ten farm system and that had an ownership that allowed him to increase payroll by 67% in three years while the rest of industry barely increased payroll at all? If we are allocating credit (for 2009, 2010 and 2011) and blame (for 2012 and YTD 2013), do you think that the current GM gets a larger and larger share of the credit or blame as we get further into his tenure? Put differently, how much of 2009′s success do you attribute to RAJ? To Gillick? To Wade? How much of the current situation do you attribute to each of the three of them?

  33. Phillie697

    May 07, 2013 11:00 AM

    @Pencilfish,

    No one here is suggesting that we would be better GMs than RAJ. In fact, we probably would be terrible, because GM’s job is much more than just signing and trading players. However, THAT part of his job is also the part that affects the team the most, and when a bunch of amateurs have better clues what moves you should make than you, then you fail miserably at that one aspect of your job that matters the most. The fact that he has showed no signs to endeavor to improve upon that aspect of his job based on almost comically readily available information that you and I have used to evaluate what moves Phillies can make is why he should be fired.

  34. Pencilfish

    May 08, 2013 10:48 AM

    hk,

    As usual, you are mis-representing my statements. When did I give RAJ F-U-L-L credit for taking the Phillies to 3 straight post-seasons?

    The Phillies unsuccessful pursuit of international, unproven free agents predates RAJ’s tenure as GM. You can prove me wrong by reminding me of previous signings, though. I simply maintain this conservative approach is an organizational trait, partly as a result of the Phillies financial realities. If the new TV contract alters these realities, the Phillies may change their approach, but this is a discussion for another day.

  35. Pencilfish

    May 08, 2013 11:51 AM

    Phillie697,

    You have given RAJ poor marks on several trades and signings, so there’s no need to go over them, but which RAJ trades/signings have been good in your opinion? In your mind, I suppose the former outweigh the latter by a large margin, and that’s why you are calling for his firing ~18 months after the 2011 post-season.

    Also, for curiosity’s sake, what do you think of Jerry Dipoto (Angels GM) and Alex Anthopoulos (Blue Jays GM) moves in the last 1-2 years? This can provide a reference point to your analysis.

  36. hk

    May 08, 2013 12:24 PM

    Pencilfish,

    When you called RAJ the “GM that took the team to 3 straight post-seasons”, it sounded like you were giving him credit for those trips. I also asked you how much of 2009′s, 2010′s and 2011′s successes you attribute to RAJ as opposed to attributing to his successors, but you chose not to answer.

    I don’t have examples of the Phils spending big money on unproven international free agents prior to RAJ’s tenure. However, it was during RAJ’s tenure that revenues increased significantly as did spending. Therefore, I don’t know if the pre-RAJ Phils didn’t spend on international free agents because ownership was opposed to it or if they didn’t spend on international free agents because they just didn’t spend.

    I ask you again…do you believe, if RAJ had endorsed the idea of signing Cespedes for $36M / 4 years instead of signing Papelbon for $50M / 4, that ownership would have shot him down?

  37. Pencilfish

    May 08, 2013 01:02 PM

    hk,

    I chose not to answer because your questions are difficult to quantify. I will take a guess and say 40%, 60% and 70% for 2009-2011.
    What about you?

    I don’t know if ownership would have endorsed spending on Cespedes. It would be purely speculative. I bet you don’t know either. Send me proof RAJ chose not to offer Cespedes a contract because he targeted Papelbon, and I will send you a Phillies T-shirt in exchange.

    The Phillies have not been big players in the international free agent market ever. It has very little to do with revenue and spending. I read somewhere (can’t find the source anymore) the Phillies were going to spend more on international scouting because it was a neglected area. Signing Tocci (many years after Ruiz) may be a promising sign, but that hardly qualifies as making a big splash. It’s more like dipping your toes in the water, if that.

  38. hk

    May 08, 2013 02:01 PM

    RAJ gets ~2% of the credit for the 2009 trip to the post-season. His additions to the team were Ibanez and Lee, but by the time they acquired Lee, they were already in very good position to make the post-season.

    He gets ~20% of the credit for the 2010 team making the playoffs. He turned Lee plus some good prospects that were in the system when he took over into Halladay plus lesser prospects.

    He gets ~40% of the credit for the 2011 team returning to the post-season. His additions to the pitching (Lee, Oswalt and Halladay) were great, but the players he acquired added next to nothing to the offense.

    He gets ~60% of the credit for last season and almost all of the credit for this season as this is the 5th year of his tenure.

  39. Pencilfish

    May 08, 2013 03:13 PM

    hk,

    At least we agree that Ed Wade is mostly responsible for the 2008 WS team, and Gillick just happened to be the lucky guy at the helm!

  40. Phillie697

    May 09, 2013 09:57 AM

    @Pencilfish,

    If at this point that you are still not convinced that RAJ has made terrible moves, and that those moves far out weighs the minor decent ones he has made, then there is no point discussing this further. Plus, whatever credit you would like to attribute to RAJ for our post-season streaks, I wonder at what point you will realize he is also equally responsible for this team’s decline. If you say that you won’t know “for sure” until the Phillies miss the next three post-seasons, then I applaud you; you just became qualified to be a MLB owner. Some of us aren’t so blind.

  41. Pencilfish

    May 10, 2013 10:52 AM

    Phillie697,

    RAJ is partially responsible for team performance because he put together most of the team, but players, coaches, staff, etc are responsible too. RAJ is not swinging at bad pitches. The players are.

    It is hard to put into perspective how good or bad RAJ is/was. You declined to answer my question about Dipoto/Anthopoulos, so I don’t have a reference point to make a more informed statement about RAJ’s performance.

    One issue you never touched on is RAJ’s ability to make a profit for the ownership. So far, he has done quite well in that area. His future employment with the Phillies will largely depend on continued performance in this area, which is correlated with team performance. Therefore if you want RAJ fired, you must root against the Phillies, which should not hard for you to do.

  42. hk

    May 10, 2013 01:57 PM

    Pencilfish,

    There you go again, seemingly willing to have RAJ share the blame for things going wrong, but saying he has done quite well in making a profit. He took over the World F***ing Champions. The profit in his tenure was assured the when he took over the team. What he’s done that’s amazing is taken the hottest ticket in town and made it so that season ticket holders can’t net 60 cents on the dollar when they sell seats on Stub Hub.

  43. Phillie697

    May 10, 2013 02:44 PM

    @Pencilfish,

    You’re right about one thing, I don’t care how much money the ownership makes. I just care about how many games this team wins. You’re also right that winning and profit are directly correlated, at least that’s my belief. So if we win, we will make money, that is absolutely correct. My problem with RAJ is that we won’t win under his continued tenure. At which point I’m sure you’ll just blame the players or the manager, nevermind HE ultimately decides who plays on this team or manages said team. Yeah, he deserve no blame alright. What are you, a CEO of a corporation? “Oh if the company is making money, it’s because of me; but if it’s losing money, it’s those damn lazy mofos working in R&D, fuck them!”

  44. Phillie697

    May 10, 2013 02:54 PM

    Oh, as for your insistence in talking about Dipoto/Anthopoulos, I don’t even have to discuss too much there except ask you one question: Did either of them turn a WS championship team into a non-playoff team with no farm and no bright outlook for the forseeable future, all the while spending more than $150M a year on team payroll? If they did, then we can talk. Despite what has been considered an outlandish spending streak by the Angels, their 2013 payroll is still FIFTY MILLION less than ours.

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