About Last Night…

So, just about everybody will have you covered with what went on last night, and I don’t have too much to add. The Nationals’ six-run ninth inning was one part Ryan Madson getting unlucky and one part Madson pitching poorly. (All right, maybe a dash of credit to the Nats for rallying in the first place.) Based on the reactions I saw on Twitter, there was a lot of knee-jerking, so I just want all of Philadelphia to know I have a rolled-up newspaper and I’m not afraid to hit you with it if you get out of line.

Remember: crashburnalley.com/2011/07/25/phillies-pitching-dominant-including-the-bullpen/

Take the loss in stride, like Chase Utley.

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62 comments

  1. Frank

    August 20, 2011 09:09 AM

    In some ways that final pitch was vintage Madson, in a “throw a million miles an hour down the middle of the plate to strike him out” kind of way

  2. slap_bet

    August 20, 2011 09:16 AM

    we should of something or another. Y’know?

  3. Rich

    August 20, 2011 09:24 AM

    An even tempered Utley is a good Utley.

    Under the cool demeanor, Utley is thinking, “Of course you know, Werth: This means War!” :)

  4. Richard

    August 20, 2011 09:39 AM

    I mean, right. Sometimes shit happens. I didn’t think Madson had great command, but he wasn’t all over the place. The Nats hung in there and gave him some good at bats, got some good breaks. But once Zimmerman came up, with the bases loaded? I mean, it was over at that point, even with two outs. (Once the game was tied, it may even have been in the Phillies best interests for them to just have lost like they did. It was late, team was tired, bullpen was short-handed.)

  5. John

    August 20, 2011 09:50 AM

    Charlie’s been on the wrong side of right recently. Kendrick as usual was good for 5. Herndon has been remarkable in the middle with Lidge coming back into form. Bastardo has been lights out as a closer.
    This game and The Halliday game (he was clearly sweaty and tired pitching to 3 lefties incl. 1 who hit him all game) are squarely on Charlie’s shoulders.

  6. jauer

    August 20, 2011 10:15 AM

    was i the only one yelling at the TV for more changeups in that inning? it was borderline infuriating seeing all those fastballs

  7. Gary

    August 20, 2011 10:21 AM

    To borrow Scooter Rizzuto’s famous saying, “Holy Cow!”,

    Ryan Madson didn’t lose the game, Ol’ Charlie “sit on a stump and whittle” Manual lost it! That’s 2 blown games in the past 4 days.

    Yes, I’m blaming the Halladay loss on Ol’ Stuck in the mud Charlie too.

    I respect Charlie and know that he knows a lot more baseball than I do and I’ll even say that managing a team is not an easy job. But here is where I think every fan has a right to speak up when a player or manager are not doing their job well and the team, our team is suffering. Strong word, well just because we have the best record on Aug. 20 doesn’t mean it will hold up. Come Oct. 1st, the Phillies could be a different story and 2 games in the overall record could mean something. Even if it means they come up 2 games short of a franchise record wins. You don’t get many chances in life to set a record. I hope Charlie didn’t blow this one!

    You can think up any number of excuses why Charlie didn’t pull Halladay or Madson but you are not being honest if you are going to tell me that if this were game 7 of the World Series or any playoff game you would want Charlie to DO NOTHING but watch and see how it turns out.

    Today they keep stats on everything, and they rely on these stats to make the line up and where to position the players and what pitches to throw a particular batter. Show me one stat that says that the odd are in your favor to keep a pitcher in the game after over 100 pitches and he gives up 2 lead off singles in the 9th inning rather than bring in a rested and one of the best relieving corps in baseball. Or show me a stat that says let a relief pitcher who blows a 2 run 9th inning lead and loads the bases rather than bring in another pitcher from one of the best pitching staffs in baseball. The fact is you can’t, because you don’t need a statistician to tell you it’s time to do something if you want the best chance to win the game.

    I don’t know if this is Ol’ Charlie’s trying to let a guy get out of a tough spot or Charlie not knowing what to do and doing nothing. For all of the baseball Charlie has seen over the years I think it is the later.

    Charlie knows baseball and is a good manager. But I also thing that in pressure tough game situations he doesn’t know what to do. Charlie can’t play chess and knowing the right move to make can be the difference between a pennant and a championship. Even when you have one of the best rosters you need to manage not just make the line up.

    Come on Charlie, you got a bench full of coaches, ask for help if you need to but when the ship is sinking DO SOMETHING besides pray!

  8. bsizzle

    August 20, 2011 10:29 AM

    lol gary, someone needs a wacking from the rolled up newspaper.

  9. Bill Baer

    August 20, 2011 10:30 AM

    While I agree that Manuel was at fault for the Halladay game, I’m not so sure that he did anything wrong last night. Madson looked fine, he was just done in by a bit of bad luck and poor pitch placement. The pitch that Zimmerman hit out was a meatball.

  10. Gary

    August 20, 2011 10:46 AM

    Holy Cow Bill!

    Ryan threw 38 pitches, gave up 5 hits, walked one and faced 8 batters. That’s not a bit of bad luck. The only thing missing was a loud beep and a message that said, “We interrupt this broadcast for an important emergency announcement! DANGER, DANGER, DANGER!! YOUR PITCHER IS IN BIG TROUBLE!!! PULL HIM NOW OR PREPARE TO LOSE!!! BEEEEEEEP

  11. Bill Baer

    August 20, 2011 10:57 AM

    Giving up hits is not equal to pitching poorly. Only two of them were hit well: Werth’s single and Zimmerman’s homer. As Charlie Manuel noted, Madson was ahead of most of the hitters and the Nats had a bunch of well-placed hits that would have otherwise been outs.

  12. Phil

    August 20, 2011 11:07 AM

    I think in an alternate universe, Madson gets Werth to ground out on like 3-4 pitches and none of this happens, but that 11 pitch at-bat really set the stage.

    My big issue with the whole thing is Ryan having to pitch 3 days in a row. Obviously players are big boys and should be able to do such things, but really Charlie is setting up Madson to fail IMO.

    Or maybe the offense shouldn’t have stuck their thumbs up their asses after the 3rd inning. I don’t know. Whatever.

    Given the amount of off days in the playoffs, I don’t really see it as a harbinger of things to come for Madson. Unless Charlie decides to pitch Madson multiple innings.

    As long as the team kept the metal chairs away from Madson, I think the team will be fine.

  13. Chip

    August 20, 2011 12:03 PM

    Damn Gary, first time in history that Halladay lost game in the 9th with lead at home. I have heard almost every expert on TV agree with Charlie. I personally didn’t cause i didn’t know afore mentioned fact but i am not gonna chastise him cause he went with his info. As far as Madson last nite, i don’t care either way, cause Madson took the blame on himself was humble about it and will probably be a little sharper next time he is called on. Maybe thats why Charlie left him in there. Worley has been pounded, and recovered. Lee,Oswalt all of the starters, it happens.They all recovered and so will Madson!I figure I am gonna leave the decision making to the professional unless he needs some wiring done in his house, then we are talking my game and let him know what i think then!

  14. Gary

    August 20, 2011 01:11 PM

    I was reading a book by Zig Ziglar called “Top Performance”. The book is about how to develop excellence in yourself and others. I recommend it. Easy to read and some great principles.

    There is a quote, “The greatest enemy of excellence is good!”

    I’m happy the Phils are a good team but with great players and good players who can play great or a good manager who can manage great let’s make excellence our goal not good.

    That means we have to help our team be great by calling it like it is, not making excuses for them.

  15. Bill Baer

    August 20, 2011 01:26 PM

    That’s a non-sequitur and regardless I find it hard to not call a team on pace for 105 wins “excellent”.

  16. The Howling Fantods

    August 20, 2011 01:32 PM

    Madson pitched with a seven run lead the other day. Madson looked tired last night, and gave the game away. If Madson had not unnecessarily pitched in a blowout two days previous, he may not have been tired. If Madson had not been tired, the Phillies have a much better chance at winning the game.

    Cholly’s bullpen management strikes again. If he pulled Halladay once he gave up the two hits, and puts Madson in, he might not pitch the next day, and not have pitched three games straight. Those two losses are squarely on our ‘player’s’ manager.

  17. jauer

    August 20, 2011 01:36 PM

    “My big issue with the whole thing is Ryan having to pitch 3 days in a row. Obviously players are big boys and should be able to do such things, but really Charlie is setting up Madson to fail IMO.”

    This is correct. Using Madson to close a 4-1 game after he pitched the night before is entirely useless and counterproductive

  18. buzzsaw

    August 20, 2011 02:52 PM

    There are several layers to look at this.

    1. tacitcal – We lost a $*@^$@ winnable game

    2. strategic – We’re going to win the division and all that matters now is getting to October healthy and playing well

    3. Historical – We have a chance to be among the greatest NL teams ever, perhaps posting the second highest win total in league history. Kicking away 2 games like this in a week means we might wind up as only a great team.

  19. curtwill

    August 20, 2011 02:57 PM

    That’s what closers do(Close 4-1 games and games of that nature) and people are forgetting that they had two consecutive rainouts, yesterday and the the before. So the pen has been used more than it normaly would. In fact, the reason why Madson probably pitched in the 9th inning when it was 9-2 is because he hadn’t pitched in a week. That’s long time for a reliever.

    I wouldn’t mind using Bastardo to keep Mad from getting “overworked” because we know he could get the job done in that situation but remember, they don’t have another lefty in the pen either and the best option for the 8th inning also. I am all for criticism, but teams lose, it happens. And for one, I didn’t like that Charlie kept Halladay in the game, but the man was 52-0 when leading in the 9th inning, that sounds like a lock and most managers would have done the same thing.

  20. Chris

    August 20, 2011 03:12 PM

    I don’t quite understand why people think Madson didn’t have good stuff last night. His fastball and changeup both looked fine to me and the pitch f/x data looks fine as well, so are people just assuming this because he’s pitching 3 days in a row and got bad results? The changeups to Espinosa and Desmond were effective, they were both fooled and way out in front and barely managed to get the bat on it and got bloop singles out of it. More often than not they would swing and miss at those pitches. I don’t know what pitch he threw to Gomes to get the GB in the hole but he got (basically) what he wanted: a weak ground ball. It just happened to be in the hole and Valdez was playing up. There’s 3 AB’s that could have easily ended in outs if Madson throws the same exact pitches regardless of whether he’s pitching on 3 days rest or for the 3rd day in a row. In my opinion last night, up until the Zim HR (where the game was pretty much over anyway), there was nothing wrong with the way Madson was pitching or his stuff.

    Anyway, does this mean (unless Oswalt pitches CG) we get Schwimer tonight? Please?

  21. Gary

    August 20, 2011 03:26 PM

    Hey Bill,

    Here’s another non-sequitur for you.

    I was blogging with some guy who thinks the his team is excellent because they are in first place.

    I bet he also thinks the stock market is in great shape because it’s higher than a year ago.

    It’s better to be an optimist than a pessimist but there is something called being a realist.

    It’s ok to disagree with my comments but dismissing them as irrelevant just because you don’t have the capacity to see the analogy is, well I won’t name call.

  22. Robby Bonfire

    August 20, 2011 03:34 PM

    Technically, it was a nightmare in that the first two hitters in the inning singled after “Bulldog” had them down, 0-2 on the count, and another hitter cashed in with a hit after being behind on the count 1-2. Where the hell was the “out pitch?”

    This has serious implications in that, while every team in MLB gets snake-bitten with an occasional loss like this, I don’t like Madson’s post game comments to the effect that “It’s only one game,” plus the truly inexcusable remark, in reference to the 3-2, bases loaded, grand slam pitch: “Most of the time the hitter is going to get a hit in a spot like that.”

    Really! Madson EXPECTS hitters in that spot to hit over .500 against him? Can you imagine Mariano Rivera or any Yankee pitcher saying that to George Steinbrenner, in the old days? You think George would have stood for that from any of his players?

    I am reminded of the story of a New York Yankees outfielder, I believe it was Roy Johnson, who remarked, after the Yankee manager Joe McCarthy blasted the team following a particularly tough loss: “What does that guy expect to do, win every day?” This remark was overheard in the clubhouse and passed upstairs so that the next day Roy Johnson became a member of the Washington Senators.

    To Ryan Madson I would say, yes, it was just one game, but DO NOT take a “It was just one game” attitude. And I would say NEVER cave in to a hitter, mentally or physically. Make him beat you, if he can, but do not beat yourself up before and after the fact.

    Yes, Madson, you are the new “Mr. Softy.” Far as I am concerned you can sit down for a week, revise upward your negative attitude toward yourself and your entirely too philosophical attitude as regards your acceptance of defeat.

    And I hope you don’t infect your teammates with your cancerous passing of the buck. The Yankees or Red Sox will be plenty tough enough in October without bringing worst case scenario expectations into the mix to accommodate them. They come to win – not to maybe win but probably lose, by contrast with you.

    I say give Bastardo the baseball in the ninth inning, until further notice. Madson can’t handle it, success or failure.

  23. Bill Baer

    August 20, 2011 03:49 PM

    Gary,

    What I meant was that your story didn’t adhere to what you were saying before. Non sequitur means “does not follow”. Wasn’t saying anything else other than that I was not seeing the connection, and that your calling the Phillies a “good” team rather than an “excellent” team was not rational.

  24. Mike B.

    August 20, 2011 04:16 PM

    Gary and Robby, you guys need to back off the caffeine. If you’re this worked up in August, how are you going to get through October?

    Seriously, it is only one game. That is the attitude the entire team has had for several years; I’ve heard Utley say the same sort of thing. I suppose he’s mr softy as well. You have the luxury of getting twisted up about one game; they don’t–tomorrow’s game is more important.

    Re: Madson – I think he was just a little tired. He didn’t have bad stuff, but he just didn’t have quite the snap on it that gives him that out pitch. Both he and Bastardo need to get some rest. Lidge probably needs to get some more work, anyway.

  25. Robby

    August 20, 2011 04:30 PM

    Robby,

    Madson reacting the way he did is actually a good thing. Yes, every once in a while, a reliever, even an elite one, will get lip up (Craig Kimbrel is arguably the best reliever is the NL, and he’s got, what, four blown saves?). The best way to make sure that happens again is to get all upset over it and let it get to you (and, say, kick a folding chair).

    If you’re interpreting what Madson said as “we lost, and I don’t care,” rather than as “we lost, it happens, now let’s make sure we win the next one,” you’re seriously reading way too much into it and projecting stuff that isn’t there.

  26. Gaël

    August 20, 2011 05:47 PM

    Wow, that previous post was from me. Massive brain fart there.

  27. Jim

    August 20, 2011 06:09 PM

    Reading these comments I really have to laugh. Everyone, of course, would have made the perfect managerial decisions in hindsight, and the Phillies would have won those two games lost in the ninth. Hey, did any of you geniuses consider that Madson could of relieved Halliday in the ninth and…wait for it…the same thing could have happened to him as happened last night? I know Bill would have defended that action, at least he is consistent, but I can just see the vituperation leveled a Cholly on the comments here after that. Then all of Roy’s great stats would have been cited, both historically and for the game, and Charlie would have been deemed certifiable for lifting Roy. Now, of course, you want it both ways. Relieve your ace with the closer, and relieve your closer when he doesn’t seem to be closing the way you had in mind (sorry if the Nat’s batters didn’t each just pull out a gun and commit suicide rather than face Madson).
    It’s pretty evident that almost all of you have zero pitching experience beyond little league. If you did, you’d know that expecting the hook after every pitch or batter is not conducive to the confidence that is needed to pitch well at a high (or elite) level. Things like LOOGYs aside, most pitchers come into an inning (whether starting or relieving)expecting to close that inning out. It is their raison d’etre. Pitchers appreciate managers who don’t give up on them because of one setback, be it a hit or a loss. Now, of course it is the manager’s job to guide a team to victory, and all but the most unrealistic pitchers recognize that they will be pulled when they don’t perform well (and sometimes even when they do, like for a pinch hitter), but you don’t just give up on a guy who’s performed excellently in the past. From the comments here I think many would turn the Phillies pitching into the equivalent of the Flyers’ goaltending in short order.

  28. Jim

    August 20, 2011 06:14 PM

    Oh, and Gary? Please stick the Zig Ziglar management/sales tome of the week where the sun doesn’t shine! There’s a little chicken soup for my soul!

  29. Smitty

    August 20, 2011 07:34 PM

    Ok. So, there’s lots of chicken little, the sky is falling; but, is there legitimate need for some concern? The most intelligent comments were centered on Madison not having an effective out pitch like he usually does. He was locating, getting ahead, but had no bite on his pitches to get them out. Tired? Who knows.
    One thing no one correctly discussed was Madisen wasn’t yanked because they were playing for extra innings. Ok, you pull madsen for Bastardo, then what? Only Stutes for extras? Not a wise choice. So, its not the end of the world. Charlie made the right move last night, and those things happen.
    None the less, NOBODY can convince Charlie made the right move with Halladay. Charlie basically abdicated his manager’s role to his stubborn ace that night. Sorry, Charlie, its your job to be the adult.

  30. Jim

    August 20, 2011 08:10 PM

    Actually Smitty, it’s the other way around. Sticking with your ace when he is 52-0 leading in the ninth inning makes sense. I’ll take a 52-1 record any time. Sticking with your closer when he is dominant makes sense as well. However, Madson has not been dominant of late. Forget about the three days pitching in a row (although I agree Madson did not need to pitch in the 9-2 game). If you look at the last two games against the Dodgers, Madson got the save, but gave up a run each time to a light hitting team. The Phils were fortunate to have an insurance run to play with in both cases. I discount the effort in the 9-2 game, as it was a mop up against a beaten team. So in two of the previous three save situations, Madson had given up runs going into last night. I still would have started the ninth with him, but I would have relieved him after the second or third hit. He’s great, but he’s slipped a little of late and that needs to be taken into account.

  31. MIke G

    August 20, 2011 08:16 PM

    Jim, who exactly would you have relieved him with?

  32. Robby Bonfire

    August 20, 2011 08:30 PM

    MIKE B: Is there something wrong with intensity as part of the psychological make-up of a major league ballplayer? I mean, Ty Cobb, Leo Durocher, Jackie Robinson, Billy Martin, Pete Rose – those guys did alright.

  33. Jim

    August 20, 2011 08:37 PM

    Stutes. Not a great option, but not the worst. I don’t fault Charlie for sticking with Madson, though. It’s a tough choice and Charlie backed his closer. I’m trying to win in the ninth. If the game goes even a few extra innings, Wilmer may be making another appearance….

  34. jauer

    August 20, 2011 08:44 PM

    @ Jim,

    “Hey, did any of you geniuses consider that Madson could of…”

    Too much irony.

  35. Scott G

    August 20, 2011 08:50 PM

    Robby Bonfire,

    What do you want him to do? He has certainly shown fire in the past. Bill had a .gif in one of his posts with Madson screaming “F*** Yeah!” after he struck out the final batter in the game earlier this season. He also kicked a chair last year! Do you really think a major league player of Madson’s caliber made it this far while lacking certain necessary attributes? I highly doubt it.

  36. Jim

    August 20, 2011 09:04 PM

    Yeah, I know, Bill, lol. That same guy who just pitched a perfect ninth, lol.

  37. Jim

    August 20, 2011 09:18 PM

    @ jauer

    If the dunce cap fits, wear it. In your case I’d say it was a custom job.

    @all

    Have a good night. Go Phillies!

  38. Scott G

    August 20, 2011 09:30 PM

    Bill, I feel like you could throw that inquisitive troll pic most of the time.

  39. Robby Bonfire

    August 20, 2011 09:34 PM

    SCOTT G:

    Some have a detached temperament – athletes and all human beings in general; some are intense by nature, so no one can be faulted on that basis.

    However, in the case of last night’s dreadful outcome, I am seeing and therefore making a connection between Madson’s stoicism, and his INDEFENSIBLE comment, in effect, that “Most of the time the hitter is going to get a hit in a spot like that.” That is a direct post-game quote from Madson I picked up at another web site, but since I am not here to promote other sites, please just take my word for it that that quote is out there at a credible source, in case it was not picked up by the Philadelphia media.

    Man, I’m the manager I lay the wood to one of my ballplayers who goes public – private is bad enough, with a defeatist remark like that. If I am the GM, I strongly consider shopping a milksop like that in the off-season.

    So that what I want, Scott, is a winning attitude from the top to the bottom of the organization, at all times. No exceptions, understanding over the long season there will be some downer experiences between the white lines.

    I can excuse the actual result, yes he was out there for the third straight game, not his fault, but an attitude check I would insist upon, were I signing his paycheck.

    There is another MLB organization which considers any and every season it does not win the World Series a FAILED season. The Phillies now have the talent in place to compete with anybody on our own terms. I am thinking the resurgence furnished lately by Pence and the phenomenal Mayberry may truly have put this team over the top as the best team in MLB, right now. But the attitude and psychological approach, without exception, must be healthy, positive, and indomitable if the ultimate prize is to be won on the field – starting with its being won in the clubhouse.

  40. Robby Bonfire

    August 20, 2011 09:38 PM

    By the way, if anybody is putting a “troll” question mark next to my name, I grew up in Ardmore,PA on South Wyoming Avenue, attended Episcopal Academy for four years, and Lower Merion Jr. and Sr. High Schools. I now live upstate NY but will never abandon my allegiance to the Phillies and Eagles, and 76ers. Thank you.

    Thanks to outstanding sites such as this, I am able to keep up with my favorite teams, and this adds a lot to my life’s gratification. My constructive criticism is just that – tough love – I don’t baby anybody in my own family, either.

  41. Bill Baer

    August 20, 2011 10:00 PM

    @ Robby Bonfire

    I didn’t bother to check the post-game quotes after Madson’s game. Would you mind linking me to that quote? (“Most of the time the hitter is going to get a hit in a spot like that.”)

    It may actually be the case that the statement is factually correct. We just need a bit more context.

    For instance, a full count with the bases loaded is predominantly a hitter-friendly count (compared to the average) because the pitcher has no wiggle room.

  42. Scott G

    August 20, 2011 10:07 PM

    Robby,

    1) I don’t think anyone was questioning your allegiance to the Philly teams by using the word “troll”.

    2) Athletes aren’t usually the brightest bunch. I would be willing to bet that he was just rambling when he said that. I don’t get why athletes need to talk to the media, and I’m sure they get tired of it. All he needs to be thinking is “I don’t want to be talking to these people”, and just spit out whatever comes into his head.

    Here are just a few quotes from athletes:

    “The sun has been there for 500, 600 years.”—Baseball player Mike Cameron

    “The Bible never says anything about dinosaurs. You can’t say there were dinosaurs when you never saw them. Somebody actually saw Adam and Eve. No one ever saw a Tyrannosaurus Rex.”—Carl Everett

    “Because there are no fours.”—NBA long-range gunner Antoine Walker when asked why he shoots so many threes.

    “We have a great bunch of outside shooters. Unfortunately, all our games are played indoors.”—Basketball player Weldon Drew

  43. Robby Bonfire

    August 20, 2011 10:21 PM

    SCOTT G: Another timeless quote was John McKay, Tampa Bay Bucs coach, in their infancy, asked about the team’s execution following an embarrassing loss. He stated: “I’m in favor of it.”

    BILL: You go to www.vegasinsider.com; MLB, Fri. Aug. 19; Phila @ Wash; and hit “Recap.”

    The exact quote is: “Most times when you challenge a guy like that, he’s going to get a hit, and he did it that time. So, I tip my hat to him. He’s a great hitter.”

  44. Robby Bonfire

    August 20, 2011 10:25 PM

    By the way, I think Mike Cameron was quoted out of context and really said: “The sun has been there for, what, 500 or 600 years, going on a couple billion years.”

  45. Bill Baer

    August 20, 2011 10:29 PM

    Yeah, honestly, I don’t have a problem with what he said. He probably knows the stats given the score, runners on base, count, etc.

    Sacks juiced, full count is not a good spot for a pitcher. I don’t know that the hitter will get a hit “most of the time” but it’s not exactly 0-2 with the bases empty.

  46. Robby Bonfire

    August 21, 2011 05:05 AM

    BILL -

    A “closer” thinking that way is bad enough, but actually saying what Madson said, without redress from management, really concerns me because if this club does make it to the W.S. we can reasonably anticipate that one or two games will come down to the Phillies having a short lead to protect in the ninth inning. The Yankees or Red Sox will maul Madson if they smell “blood in the water” with his lack of confidence.

    Living upstate New York (Adirondacks), as I do, I am compelled to suffer through about dozen late comeback victories by the Yankees, on TV, every season. Madson, unfortunately, is made to order for the Yankees powerful psychology exuding a strong belief that they are the better team and that they will find the way to win the game, any game. And when they do come up short, the quotes from the manager and the players are along the lines of how they could have done better – not how wonderfully skilled and talented the other team is. Never does anyone in the Yankee organization fall into that trap because they know they are held accountable for their attitude and they want to continue to be employed by the Yankees.

    The Phillies, starting with the manager, need to pull themselves up to that level, and quickly. I am concerned that Madson’s attitude is a reflection of management’s attitude, as much as his own views.

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