Should Roy Halladay Have Thrown 130 Pitches?

Roy Halladay pitched excellently against the San Diego Padres on Sunday afternoon, striking out 14 hitters in eight and two-thirds innings. The ninth inning had a similar feel to the ninth in his start on April 13 against the Washington Nationals. In both games, Halladay was working on a shut-out, but had a high pitch count going into the final inning. Both times, Charlie Manuel opted to let his star pitcher attempt to finish the game, and in neither case did he accomplish that goal.

Halladay led the league in complete games in each of the past four years, and in complete game shut-outs in each of the past three years. If there is one pitcher in baseball conditioned to such a heavy workload, it’s Halladay. He has thrown 110 or more pitches in each of his previous four starts, and did so in 17 of his 33 starts last year.

Those who think Halladay should be out there in the ninth inning with a high pitch count in a close game usually lament the current era of baseball for “pampering” pitchers. However, it’s less about pampering and more about risk-aversion and protecting assets. Managers and pitching coaches who hold their pitchers to pitch counts are being cautious, and the Phillies should be just as cautious. After all, they have Halladay signed through 2014 potentially, as well as Cliff Lee through 2016 (potentially), and both Cole Hamels and Roy Oswalt through 2012 (potentially). Assuming all options are exercised, the Phillies have $263 million committed to their four best starters, and that’s without accounting for Hamels’ final year of arbitration.

If the Phillies had no solid options behind Halladay, and if the game was close, I could understand sending Halladay back to the mound with 113 pitches. According to FanGraphs, though, the Phillies had a 97 percent chance to win when the top of the ninth inning ended. Furthermore, despite that Jose Contreras went on the 15-day disabled list, the Phillies had two reliable arms that could have gotten three outs in Ryan Madson and Antonio Bastardo. The Phillies get nothing extra from letting Halladay finish the game. Halladay gets the extra notch in the “CG” and “SHO” columns on Baseball Reference, but the Phillies risk a lot (fatigue, injury) for nothing in the regular season in April.

Entering yesterday afternoon’s game, the Phillies had the third-highest total innings pitched by starters, behind the Los Angeles Dodgers and Atlanta Braves (both had two extra games in hand). The Phillies had the lowest total innings pitched by relievers.

It’s not just Halladay that is getting overworked early by Manuel. Hamels threw 126 pitches through eight shut-out innings against the Padres on Friday, a game the Phillies won 2-0. He entered the eighth with 109 pitches. There is just no reason to have him out there, and Hamels did appear fatigued. His fastball usually sits around 91 MPH, but averaged just 89.5 MPH in the eighth inning.

Jose Contreras, recently placed on the disabled list, needed 20 or more pitches to get through four of his eight one-inning appearances. He had pitched in five of the Phillies’ seven games from April 15-21, throwing a total of 81 pitches.

I know I’ve been very critical of Manuel over the years. The Phillies have been very successful under his leadership. Every player that has passed through Philadelphia since 2005 has sworn by him. There’s something to be said for the way he deals with his players, and maybe that’s enough to outweigh his strategical miscues. While failure to abuse a platoon match-up will only lead to one loss maximum, overworking starters can lead to multiple losses and even to injuries — effects that can be felt years down the road. Being mindful of pitch counts isn’t “pampering” pitchers; it’s being smart and putting your team in the best position to win as many games over the long haul as possible.

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46 comments

  1. Bruce

    April 25, 2011 07:45 AM

    Bill,

    I agree completely with your assessment of Manuel. It’s clear he has very little faith in his bullpen to the detriment of the starters. Hamels should not have pitched the 8th innning and I was unhappy, although not surprised, that Halladay started the 9th. This isn’t just about Manuel, however. Where is Dubee? He should be protecting his pitchers. I have been an outspoken critic of his in the past. What are his credentials? It appeared that Moyer was the pitching coach the past few years. Name a pitcher who said that Dubee made a positive impact on his career. What am I missing about this guy?

  2. Ankit

    April 25, 2011 08:21 AM

    I disagree and I expect better statistical backup than simply throwing out a pitch count. He was working on a shutout and Roy has earned the chance to go out and get it. Apart from the high pitch count, was he pitching in high leverage situations for most of the game? 130 pitches with usually no one on base is easier on the arm than 110 but pitching out of the stretch every inning. Same goes for Hamels. Yes, his average speed dropped, but speed is not everything when pitching. Location and movement matter a lot too.

    Regarding the “CG” and “SHO”, it matters to players and if the coach is willing to give you a chance to go for personal goals when they fit in with team goals, that is probably a reason why players like playing for Manuel. He doesn’t do everything “by the book” and has been successful. He knows his pitcher better than we do. People made a huge deal last year when Roy threw a lot of pitches against the Pirates in May/June. Didn’t affect him much right?

    Can we get an analysis on how a team with such putrid offense has the best record in baseball and how likely are to sustain in. Is there a historical precedence for such anemic offenses with great pitching? How did those teams do?

  3. Moose

    April 25, 2011 08:46 AM

    Ankit,

    Some of your reasonings are flawed. Regardless of the situation, 130 pitches is 130 pitches, high leverage or not. That’s a lot of wear on the arm. I pitch, and a couple of years ago I would throw 140 pitches per game for my team because we had no bullpen. No I have a torn labrum.

    Hamels’ speed was down in the last inning, meaning he was tired. Yes, speed doesn’t mean everything when you pitch, but if your average speed is 91, and your only throwing 89, that mean something’s up. If he was a normal softtosser, that’d be a different story, but he’s not. Seeing his velocity dip in the last inning, Charlie should have pulled him. When you’re tired, you try to overcompensate, and that’s when injuries occur.

    The pitchers on this team, time and again, have said its not about personal goals. It’s about winning. Roy would only have been mad if he came out after the 8th because he feels its his job to finish every game, whether up by 6 or down by 17. He doesn’t care about the CG or SHO statistic as a personal award. Charlie shouldn’t either. He is trying to win ballgames. Every time you can get a chance to rest one of your stud arms, you do it. It’s just common sense. There have been studies dealing with pitcher abuse points and whatnot, and they show that too many pitches over 100 can adversely affect a pitcher in the future.

    On a side note, I was furious at Charlie the first time he let Roy go out to complete the game. It was completely unnecessary and only increased risk. Then he did the same with Hamels, and I was again pissed. I missed last night’s game but saw Roy, again, was out there longer than necessary. I’ve given up on Charlie’s ability to manage pitchers. Day in and day out it becomes clear he has no idea what he’s doing in that department

  4. Richard

    April 25, 2011 08:50 AM

    I think Manuel is in something of a bind here. Going into yesterday’s game, neither Contreras nor Madson were available, and now the former is on the DL, while Madson has pitched quite frequently over the last week. Bastardo is on the verge of being over-used, and he has considerable injury history. The other guys haven’t exactly been sitting idle, but they also aren’t great, and had meanwhile all pitched the previous day.

    It seems to me that any sustained weak offensive showing, like we’ve been seeing, will mean some combination of things: if games are tied, we’ll see early pinch-hitting, or extra-inning affairs, meaning more appearances from Baez, Herndon, Kendrick. Extra-innings means we likely eventually see Madson, or Contreras (when off the DL), or Bastardo, or whoever else too, depending. If the Phillies have a slim lead, which is all they have had lately, then we’re much more likely to see deeper outings, and possible CGs, potentially raising pitch-counts. When all these sorts of games happen consecutively, the chances of some combination of starter AND reliever overwork is distinctly possible.

    It makes me think back to the game against Florida, when we all complained (myself included) about Baez being left in to give up the go-ahead hit, instead of either Bastardo or Madson being brought in. Both of whom have been used a lot since then . Granted they also both appeared later in that game, but my point is that managing a pitching staff is not easy, and getting the guys regular but not too much work is tricky. And the offense is not helping matters.

  5. Ankit

    April 25, 2011 09:02 AM

    Moose, there are obviously two sides to this. I just don’t think it is as automatic as you and Bill make it out to be. Its a shame you have a torn labrum but simply throwing a lot is not the only reason for pitching-related injuries. For years pitchers were ok throwing over 130 pitches and some suffered injuries. By throwing fewer pitches nowadays, you would expect pitchers to suffer fewer injuries but I don’t see that to be the case. So, even though the pitcher abuse studies are out there, there is a lot more that goes in to this and it is not simply keep the pitch count under X.

    Also, 130 pitches is not 130 pitches regardless of the situation. Mentally, a person will approach things differently based on the situation and that plays into it. If Roy says, I want to finish it and I can, then you let him, especially if he is going for a shutout. If the inning began at 3-1, I am not sure that Roy is out. But because if was 3-0, you can let him be out there.

    Hamels’ average went from 91 to 89.5; a drop of 1.5. What is the plus/minus on the speed gun measuring this?

    You can say that Charlie has no idea in managing a pitching staff but until the results are much different, I can’t indict him based on what I think or have read. He is not Dusty Baker…

  6. Spree

    April 25, 2011 09:49 AM

    I’m not sure what the problem is with either Hamels or Halladay situations this past weeekend. Here’s a quote from Halladay:

    “I felt good,” Halladay said. “Even at the end I felt good. It was one of those days where, especially through the middle innings, there weren’t a lot of high-stress pitches, and I think that plays a part into it, especially being able to throw more pitches. If you’re doing it with the bases loaded every inning, it takes a different toll.”

    Of course you need to take this with a grain of salt since it’s what you expect the player to say but you can’t discount it completely. He was using has changeup and curveball a lot yesterday. I’m not a pitcher but I’d have to imagine that off speed pitches don’t cause as much fatigue as trying to throw your hardest fastball. Halladay was also at 113 pitches after 8 and didn’t appear to be laboring at all to my eye. I don’t have a problem with him coming back for the 9th to go for a complete game. If the previous innings were to be a gauge he should have been out of the inning with about 123 pitches.

    As for the Hamels game, he was at 109 pitches after 7 innings. He had 9 pitches in the 7th, 10 pitches in the 6th, and 16 pitches in the 5th and 4th. Hamels didn’t appear to be laboring after the 7th inning. Would we even be talking about overuse if he had a 9 or 10 pitch 8th (to put his pitch count at 118-119)? I can’t see a point in the 8th inning once he started pitching that I would have yanked him. He gave up a single to Headley on an 0-2 count. Can’t see pulling him there. Then he strikes out the next two batters. Not going to pull him here. Then he gets Cantu to ground out and Hamels day was done.

    For the Hamels game they had an inkling that Contrearas was iffy at best to pitch in that game and the next two. Bastardo was used for 1.1 the last night so probably wasn’t available. So if Madson was going to close you would have to put in Baez, Kendrick, Zagurski, or Herndon (who had pitched the day before) in a 2-0 game with the top of the Padres line up coming. As an armchair manager I’m going with Hamels and hoping for a relatively easy inning.

    Sum up. Don’t have a problem with either game and how Manuel managed it. I probably would have pulled Halladay after he gave up the second single in the 9th but I can also see how Halladay has been in that situation many times before and had no problems getting out of it, especially the way he had been pitching all day.

  7. Dave

    April 25, 2011 10:04 AM

    Bill,

    I’ll follow you anywhere but not on this topic. There’s no evidence that says that 115 pitches, or 120 pitches, or 130 pitches is too much for a grown man in his 30s. A 100-110 standard pitch count is an arbitrary number. Would I have sent Doc out for the 9th? No, but there’s also no need to get Dr. Andrews on the phone because Charlie did.

    I remember a big stink being made about Doc throwing 130 pitches in a loss at home against Pittsburgh last year. This will always be an on-going topic.

    (Side note, Bill: Mark Reynolds is really testing my patience…)

    Thanks.

  8. Mike Smith

    April 25, 2011 10:05 AM

    Nolan Ryan had multiple games in a row where his pitch count was above 150 and was still throwing mid-high 90′s well into his 40′s not to mention still throwing no-hitters at that age as well.

    Every pitcher is different and has different limits and Halladay has a higher limit then most pitchers and the ability to do it over and over.

    Honestly, to me this is nothing more then the chance for the author to bash Manuel over something. It’s a non-story.

  9. Jesse

    April 25, 2011 10:24 AM

    Love you, Bill, but you should have acknowledged Madson wasn’t available. That makes the calculation a lot more difficult. No Madson/Contreras/Lidge makes the ‘pen weak, and the offense is average (at best) without Chase. Have to lean on the starters right now.

  10. Rob

    April 25, 2011 10:40 AM

    Bill-

    Like some other commenters, I’d like to see some evidence of the effect of high pitch counts on guys like Halladay (age, experience, etc.). I’ve seen studies that too many pitches are bad for young pitchers, but not much beyond that. Is there anything? It would be pretty out of character for you to make the argument without some date to support it.

    Obviously, just being out on the mound carries with it an inherent risk of injury, which is minimal, but if there’s no good reason for the pitcher to be out there, it’s still something. So I’m with you on that.

    A couple other things:

    Halladay looked tired to me in the 9th, but the Padres broadcast, which I was watching, still showed his velocity at 93/94 on his fastball. That’s where it was at on their broadcast all day.

    Ankit makes a good point about pitching with men on bases. It’s not about leverage, but as Ankrit said, the difference between pitching from the stretch and from the windup. Halladay’s comments support that. Again, I don’t really know how each effects a pitcher, but it’s worth considering that not every 130 pitch game is the same for a pitcher.

    I was at that complete game loss to the Pirates and I couldn’t believe Doc was coming back out. I admit that I get nervous when it happens, but I’ve pretty accepted that Halladay is going to do what he wants without much of a fight from Charlie. On Hamels, I’m not so sure what happened there (I fell asleep the other night when Hamels didn’t look like he was gonna make it that far).

  11. Rob

    April 25, 2011 10:48 AM

    Also, it sucks to think that with more or less every Halladay outing (occaisional perfect game notwithstanding),, we’ll be stressting either because he’s not pitching well, or because he’s throwing ~130 pitches. Oh well..

  12. John

    April 25, 2011 11:00 AM

    I am also OK with the 130 pitches.

    What about the time factor? His 130 pitches came in a time span of less than 2 hours (in very pleasant weather). I posit that it would have been “worse” if he instead exerted 130 pitches over the course of 3 hours. After a shorter outing, he can get into his cooldown and recovery process faster. How to quantify that in number of pitches per time of outing, though? 15 or 20 pitches per hour savings?

  13. Robby

    April 25, 2011 11:07 AM

    As a fan of baseball and a fan of Roy Halladay, I was glad to see him out there. I love CG SOs. As a fan of the Phillies, I’m getting a little worried.

  14. Marc

    April 25, 2011 11:15 AM

    Bill,

    I’m also going to disagree with you. Halladay did not allow a baserunner past first until the 9th, and had 14 k’s. I’m sorry but thats his game to finish. If his pitch count was at the 125-130 range through 8, then maybe he shouldn’t have gone out there. But yesterday he was cruisin.

  15. Dave

    April 25, 2011 11:49 AM

    Don’t forget to factor in the day off on Thursday which gives Halladay an extra day rest before his next start. I would suspect that was part of Charlie’s decision.

  16. Scott G

    April 25, 2011 12:27 PM

    Ummmmm Roy Halladay DID go the complete game on April 13th. Remember, Manuel went out, and Halladay told him he had it?

  17. Brad

    April 25, 2011 12:43 PM

    I’m going to stick up for Bill on this one. In April, up by three with three outs remaining, it is time to be smart and protect the most important player on your team. Even if I agree with Manuel letting Roy go out to start the ninth, the second a batter gets on base, Roy’s done. I’m really more annoyed that Roy stayed out there than that he started the inning.

    Really, we should be directing our anger at Ruben for giving Chuck such a sub-par bullpen–having to work with the three-headed monster of Baez/Herndon/Kendrick is a situation I wouldn’t want on my hands.

  18. Dan

    April 25, 2011 12:51 PM

    Bill, like Scott G said you made an error early on. Halladay got his CG in Washington, he just lost the SHO.

    As for Halladay, if he’s not worried about throwing 130 pitches, then neither am I. We can go back and forth all we want about the potential adverse effects of a high pitch count, but at the end of the day Halladay knows his body. If he says he can handle it, he can handle it.

  19. Chris

    April 25, 2011 12:52 PM

    Do you ever think that work will increase his endurance? If a pitcher is machanically sound the work should strenghten him. Halladay knows how to pitch and knows his own body. Who is to say that Halladay couldn’t be Warren Spahn or Juan Marichal and be ready, willing and able to pitch a 15 inning shutout.

  20. hk

    April 25, 2011 01:51 PM

    Unfortunately, the save statistic has led to all managers, Charlie included, treating 3 run 9th inning leads like they are games that need to be saved and not like what they are…blowouts. Prior to Sunday, the last time the Phils had a 3 run lead was Thursday when Charlie used Contreras to save the game a day after Contreras saved a 1 run victory over Milwaukee. Now, Contreras is on the DL. While we all would like to have seen Doc get the CG SHO, the smart move would have been to let Bastardo start the 9th. Sure, Doc can probably handle the 130 pitches, but why find out?

  21. dave

    April 25, 2011 01:57 PM

    I think Brad put it best: it’s April. There’s absolutely no reason to be throwing 130 pitches in April when you’ve got the division lead and you’re playing the light hitting Padres. If Manuel is not comfortable using Herndon, Zagurski, Kendrick or Baez for the last inning, it’s time to cut their dead weight and call up someone that the manager believes can get outs.

  22. hunterfan

    April 25, 2011 01:57 PM

    There are plenty of guys who have pitched multiple years injury free with far greater workloads than Doc. If the guy says he feels fine, and you are not seeing any ill effects, then why take him out because of an arbitrary number?

  23. ragarm43

    April 25, 2011 02:06 PM

    This is non sense. Each pitcher is different.If the proper rest is between starts there is no problem.Hell the Phils should go back to a 4 man rotation. It WORKED FOREVER IN THE PAST.

  24. bill

    April 25, 2011 02:08 PM

    It’s rare that I actually agree with a pitcher throwing 130 pitches (since no matter who it is, generally that’s too many).

    However…

    1) It’s Roy Halladay. We’re not talking about an “average” pitcher, we’re talking about literally the most durable pitcher of the decade. That’s no reason to abuse him, of course, but is 130 pitches even abuse, to Halladay?

    2) He’s not 23 years old. I’d be furious if a 23 year old was out there in April throwing 130… but the guy knows how to pitch, and will get an extra day of rest this week.

    3) The inning weren’t exactly stressful or long. He was pretty much mowing them down (3 baserunners in the first 8 innings) until the 9th.

  25. Dustin

    April 25, 2011 02:54 PM

    Gelb’s latest blog talks about this briefly, Halladay explains why he doesn’t think throwing 130 is a big deal.

  26. Bill Baer

    April 25, 2011 03:48 PM

    Here’s the logic behind not making Halladay (or anyone, really) throw a bunch of pitches: is throwing 110 riskier than throwing 100? Is 120 risky? 130? Obviously, the answer is yes, and even if they are only slight risks, they are risks nonetheless.

    Why take those risks for, literally, no gain in a regular season game in April? I could understand if it’s late September in the middle of a division race. I could understand if it’s the playoffs.

    I completely agree with everyone that it’s not a big deal at all for Halladay. But it’s still a risk to make him throw 110+ pitches unnecessarily.

    Here’s an interesting discussion on the topic: www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/one_hundred_thirty/#comments

    This risk/reward scenario absolutely creates more risk and barely any reward (none, unless you consider a CG SHO a reward).

  27. Scott

    April 25, 2011 04:54 PM

    Apparently, no one digested the New York Times Sunday Magazine article very well. In that article, Roy made it very, very clear that he regards the lower pitch count totals more challenging. His entire work-out regime is based on endurance. Pitch counts then are perfectly meaningless. As a result, I expect that Roy told Charlie he was good to go. Charlie correctly observed how Roy was laboring in the 9th. After Roy lethargically moved on Venable’s hit over the mound, I would have taken Roy out as well. He was gassed. Charlie made the right move.

  28. Freelancelot

    April 25, 2011 05:13 PM

    Oh, stoppit, stoopit pitch-count whiners. The only reason starters are getting tired right after 100 pitches is because THEY HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO GET SO TIRED. Yes, the great Doc has shown fatigue in the 9th inning trying to finish off teams this season. It’s also only April, and he has been pulled early (for him) in previous games. I think (more, hope) that Charlie is conditioning his great four aces to get beyond the 7th inning…not because his bullpen sucks (it actually doesn’t) but because starters should go out there with a CG mind set. SCREW THE 100-PITCH COUNT. Why is it 100? Why isn’t it 92 or 107 pitches? Stupidity.

  29. Moose

    April 25, 2011 05:33 PM

    I agree that 100 pitches is an arbitrary number. But what I didn’t get across too well in my first post (I probably forgot to mention it entirely) is basically what Bill said in his comment. Halladay can handle 130 pitches. But what’s the need? The risk is too much to trot him out there for a personal stat booster. Take the opportunities to rest your starters when you can.

  30. Bill Baer

    April 25, 2011 05:41 PM

    Yeah, I don’t like the 100 pitch threshold. It’s different for every pitcher. I don’t think Halladay’s arm is going to fall off because he threw 130, nor do I think he is going to start slumping because of it. It’s just that there’s more risk than reward, since there really is no reward.

    Is Halladay at 60% effectiveness better than Madson or Bastardo at 98%? I don’t think so.

  31. Bruce

    April 25, 2011 05:42 PM

    Seriously guys: none of you commenting on Dubee? Is he the teflon pitching coach? Why is this all on Charlie? Isn’t Dubee’s job to protect his pitchers? I completely agree with Bill. Each pitch thrown stresses the arm. Yes, pitchers threw more pitches in the 4 man rotation. However, those pitchers also lost their fastballs in their early 30′s and were done in their mid thirties unless they threw junk to extend their careers. Look at what happened to Seaver as an example. Look how his strikeout totals dropped dramatically in his early 30′s. Talking about Ryan and even Carlton is talking about the exceptions. Ryan was a freak of nature and Carlton was incredibly well conditioned. Do you remember when (I think it was two years ago, maybe it was during 2008) Dubee allowed Lidge to pitch 4 games in a row and Lidge was clearly gassed?? Name a pitcher who says Dubee has had a positive impact on his career? I ask again: what I am missing about that guy?

  32. Richard

    April 25, 2011 07:08 PM

    But Bill, a shutout doesn’t necessarily have value (unless the Phillies only score one run, of course), but a CG does have value. A large component of Halladay’s value is innings he pitches, the break he gives the bullpen, which had itself been overworked lately. I definitely worry about the Phillies’ arms, but I think this is a non-issue and that Charlie (or Dubee) played this one right: let Halladay start the 9th (after having been simply cruising), then after one line-drive, one blooper, and one ground ball single (and with one of the two outs being a long, hard hit flyball), take him out.

  33. Mike B.

    April 25, 2011 09:02 PM

    I’m not sure I understand the argument that there is no “reward” because it’s an April game rather than a late-September pennant race game.

    “Why take those risks for, literally, no gain in a regular season game in April? I could understand if it’s late September in the middle of a division race.”

    Each of those games counts exactly the same. A win in April is the same as a win in September. The reward is the same.

  34. Moose

    April 25, 2011 09:04 PM

    Bruce,

    I didn’t comment on Dubee because I think he is useless. I don’t consider him valuable, and expect nothing less (more?) from him in respect to what you’ve mentioned

  35. Richard

    April 25, 2011 09:10 PM

    Hi Bill,

    Some of these comments and your response to them are really great stuff. To go along with the feedback stuff, featuring some of the highlights on the blog (not solely in the comments section) would be a great read.

  36. Bruce

    April 25, 2011 09:16 PM

    Moose, it is just amazing to me that the guy has a job at the MLB level. Where did he come from and what are his credentials?

  37. Bill Baer

    April 25, 2011 09:22 PM

    If it’s late September, you know exactly how many games you need to clinch, or how many games you need to catch up. That’s not at all the case in April.

  38. David

    April 25, 2011 09:37 PM

    Bill – I think you’re thinking about the situation in a completely different manner than Manuel – and I think this is a good example of why he has the job in the dugout, and you’re the guy with the job second-guessing him and looking over stats:

    Manuel has the big picture in mind, I’m sure, but in the bottom of the ninth inning, his priority is to win the current game. He’s going to go with whoever he thinks has the best chance of winning the game for him, and if Halladay says he’s good to go, Manuel is going to trust Halladay to back his words up and finish the game unless something goes awry. Both guys are in the business of winning games – individual games, first and foremost, when in the midst of them. They’re not going to be pulling up a ream of online statistics on a laptop between innings, they’re going to talk it over and make a decision based on how they feel.

    I know that statistics tend to predict and produce results than feelings, but I don’t believe that’s at all the way baseball players – particularly those on the Phillies – approach the game.

  39. hk

    April 26, 2011 05:08 AM

    It’s funny, when Charlie was criticized for (mis-)using Baez and Mayberry in situations that called for Bastardo / Madson and Gload, respectively, the blind Charlie loyalists surmised that he was using an early season game to learn something about Baez and Mayberry. Now, when he leaves Halladay in to throw 20 extra pitches to protect a lead that even Baez and surely Bastardo should be able to protect, the blind Charlie loyalists break out the “a win in April = a win in September” defense. Which one is it guys?

  40. Scott G

    April 26, 2011 08:06 AM

    I am a firm believer in a win in April = a win in September because every game counts the same. I am most definitely not a Charlie defender though. I agree with the point of not overextending an ace in April though, and agree THAT is different in April than in September.

  41. Phillie697

    April 26, 2011 12:23 PM

    I checked the blog after the game, and didn’t see an article about the 130-pitch count. I thought you were getting lazy :) Glad somebody is mentioning it. I was absolutely terrified when Halladay went out for the ninth. 130 is boderline criminally negligent.

  42. KH

    April 26, 2011 12:42 PM

    Part of being a manager is being fair with the players or doing things that the players want sometimes. Regardless of whether people want to believe it or what the players may say to media individual accomplishments matter to them. Halladay wanted the complete game and shut out so Charlie left him. You obviously have to balance that with the possiblity of over-use/injury and what is good for the team not just the player. Pretending that side of the equation doesn’t exist, players having individual goals and wants that some time have to be catered too, is ludicrous imo.

  43. Phillie697

    April 26, 2011 01:03 PM

    If we always just let players do what they want to do, what’s the point of having a manager? It’s the manager’s job to reel players in. You ALWAYS want your players to say they want to do this or that, THAT is their job. It’s the manager who is suppose to say, “well, let’s give someone else a chance.”

    There is a fairly good chance the next time out Halladay is going to have a bad outing. We shall see…

  44. Richard

    April 26, 2011 03:00 PM

    “130 is boderline criminally negligent.”

    Jesus H., no it’s not. It’s obviously a debatable point, since we’re having the debate.

    Here’s that link Bill provided above again, you all should read it (what Bill doesn’t say is that it seems to argue against this being a big deal):

    www.insidethebook.com/ee/index.php/site/comments/one_hundred_thirty/

    There’s no particular reason to be up-in-arms about a given 130-pitch start.

  45. Saint.A

    April 29, 2011 05:31 PM

    I’m not phillies fan but huge fan of Roy hallady. If hallady felt at time confident and prepared for the work load let him. Just let him know next start there will be a strict pitch count. Hallady should though keep in mind the future. I pitched in a game where I threw 138 pitches in 4 innings. On three days rest went out and pitched 5 innings with 126 pitches. Because of my ego and thinking I can continue pitching I can no longer play because of various injuries.

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